3/19: Other white meat - Page 2

Chewbaccus · 03-22-2001, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dagnabit
It's absurd on it's face. This "supreme being" delivers His law to Bronze-Age people because it's important for them to understand it... and fails to give updates to anyone else since then? Is it not important for anyone else to understand His words?

Dag, how does "Thou shalt not kill", "Thou shalt not steal" etc. etc. require an update?

No slam intended, merely asking your views.

~Mike

Dagnabit · 03-23-2001, 11:21 AM

For example? You've picked the clearest possible statement there is, the word of the supreme being is "don't kill".

However, there are numerous passages in this document that downright demand that you kill.

And who dies? Aw man, who doesn't? The whole Torah is a kill-fest! Every child that hits or curses a parent. Both parties in adultery. Homosexuals. Any daughter of a priest who becomes a whore. Rebellious or disobedient sons. Rape victims who fail to cry out loudly because they are in a city! In a lot of these cases, the word is not just that these people are to be killed, but killed by fire or stoning.

In Deuteronomy, the Lord explains that the Israelites are not only the special, chosen people, but that they should smite and utterly destroy the other nations. Why? Well these people worship other gods. So not only should the Israelites smite and utterly destroy, they must destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

Some of that, I'm sure, is against the Geneva convention.

Chewbaccus · 03-26-2001, 10:15 AM

Fist things first, I'm Christian, so I can't talk about the Torah at my current level of amateur theology.

About Deuteronomy, I'd like to see that passage for myself (not that I'm doubting you). Could you see fit to give me the chapter and verse?

Much obliged.

~Mike

Dagnabit · 03-26-2001, 11:49 AM

Deut. Chap. 7 is pretty much entirely about how much God loves the Israelites, and describes how Israelites should treat their enemy nations: smite and utterly destroy, do not intermarry, destroy the artifacts of other religions, whiz on their fig trees, etc. God then promises to take away diseases and infertility from the Israelites and will instead lay these "upon all them that hate thee", suggesting that tw should not cancel his major medical.

In Deut. 20 He explains again that, make no mistake, the enemies are to be fully smited and their cities are to be considered an inheritance. Now, I should have said earlier, He specifies which peoples are the enemies. The following tribes are to be smited until dead: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. (Except in Deut: 20-17 he gives the Girgashites a pass.)

That includes their women. Deut 21:10-14 explains very clearly that if, while taking captives amongst these enemies, you see a woman you like in the captives, you can take her home, shave her head, cut her nails, and screw her brains out, until you don't enjoy her any longer, at which time you set her free. (But don't SELL her, because THAT would be WRONG.)

Dagnabit · 03-26-2001, 12:14 PM

...I forgot. The Israelites failed to go and smite those other peoples; I'm not sure why. I mean, part of it is His fault, because He said that He would help out.

But in Judges:1 it explains that the Lord couldn't manage to drive out some of the Canaanites. He couldn't manage it because they had chariots of iron.

This made me smile because I, too, have a chariot of iron.

russotto · 03-26-2001, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dagnabit
...I forgot. The Israelites failed to go and smite those other peoples; I'm not sure why. I mean, part of it is His fault, because He said that He would help out.

But in Judges:1 it explains that the Lord couldn't manage to drive out some of the Canaanites. He couldn't manage it because they had chariots of iron.

This made me smile because I, too, have a chariot of iron.

This explains certain person's problems with automobiles.

Chewbaccus · 03-27-2001, 11:14 AM

Okay Dag, I read this over, and you were twisted up. Don't worry, I did the same thing until only a few months ago.

See, the trick with the Bible is you have to read a passage word-for-word. All the "thee"'s and "shalt"'s prompt a reader to skim a great deal, and you get a misinterpretation.

When Deuteronomy goes "and the LORD said, 'thou shalt...", it's not in a commanding, but a prophesizing manner. It's not "You must do this", but "When you're in this situation, you're gonna do this"

Deut. looks like: "I will deliver your enemies into your hands, and you must smite them all", but means: "When I deliver your enemies into your hands, you will forsake my commandments and indulge in sin" It's a "Though you're my chosen people, you are still people and susceptible to temptation" lesson.

~Mike

russotto · 03-27-2001, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Chewbaccus
Okay Dag, I read this over, and you were twisted up. Don't worry, I did the same thing until only a few months ago.

See, the trick with the Bible is you have to read a passage word-for-word. All the "thee"'s and "shalt"'s prompt a reader to skim a great deal, and you get a misinterpretation.

When Deuteronomy goes "and the LORD said, 'thou shalt...", it's not in a commanding, but a prophesizing manner. It's not "You must do this", but "When you're in this situation, you're gonna do this"

~Mike

So why does "Thou shalt" mean something different in Exodus, where it is clearly in a commanding manner?

And if you're going to read it word for word, shouldn't you do that in the original language?

Dagnabit · 03-27-2001, 01:55 PM

That's fair, Chew, and it's highly possible that I misinterpreted, since I'm no biblical scholar. I will admit to having read a chapter here and a chapter there to try to figure out what's going on.

Tonight I will embark on reading the whole Deut. in order to see for myself what's going on. And I'll try to summarize in a new thread.

By the way, I realize that I'm being downright blasphemous. I'm sorry if I hurt people's feelings, truly I am, but on the other hand I have to A) be myself, and B) be as skeptical and honest as I can be as I evaluate entire schools of thought.

I doubt I could even participate in the thread without being blasphemous, but if I'm being ignorant, it reflects solely on me and not on anyone else here.

I guess what I'm saying is that I can't question your faith, I can only question SOME of the points IN your faith. And I can't stop from doing that.

adamzion · 03-27-2001, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dagnabit
Tonight I will embark on reading the whole Deut. in order to see for myself what's going on. And I'll try to summarize in a new thread.
[/b]

You intend to read the entire book of Devarim (the Hebrew term for Deuteronomy- it literally means "Words") tonight- and in the original Biblical Hebrew, no less!- and summarize it in a single post.

Ladies and Gentlemen, stand in respect! We are clearly in the presence of the greatest Torah scholar of the generation!

It ain't that easy, guy,
Z

Chewbaccus · 03-27-2001, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by russotto
So why does "Thou shalt" mean something different in Exodus, where it is clearly in a commanding manner?

And if you're going to read it word for word, shouldn't you do that in the original language?

Russ, context and yes.

jaguar · 04-26-2001, 04:31 AM

i'm gonna take a quote from a guy on slashdot

Creationism doesn't sound so crazy if you bend it
and twist it until it matches the best that science can currently muster.

And its true, for cryingout loud i doubt there have ever, been anotehr discussin on the length of a day except when it come sto the whole 6 days thing, its so stupid, stop trying to twist the facts to accomodate belifs, either a: have some REAL FAITH IN WHAT U BELIEVE, or give up.

Yes this is flamebait but i jsut *had* to point that out, i'm not some athiest on a crusade to shit off all the religious types i can, i have respect for thsoe who can base thier lifearound abook, it takes alot of courage to tand up topopular opinion, myself i'm agnostic.

serge · 04-26-2001, 10:15 AM

I think most of this "debate" can be concluded by going to this site. (HUGE amount of work.. suggest you actually read some of it, before you flame.)

And now.. the moment you've all been waiting for.. another jpg

03-26-2001, 10:15 AM	#18
Chewbaccus Freethinker/booter Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 523	Fist things first, I'm Christian, so I can't talk about the Torah at my current level of amateur theology. About Deuteronomy, I'd like to see that passage for myself (not that I'm doubting you). Could you see fit to give me the chapter and verse? Much obliged. ~Mike __________________ Like the wise man said: Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

03-26-2001, 12:14 PM	#20
Dagnabit High Propagandist Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 115	Oh and ...I forgot. The Israelites failed to go and smite those other peoples; I'm not sure why. I mean, part of it is His fault, because He said that He would help out. But in Judges:1 it explains that the Lord couldn't manage to drive out some of the Canaanites. He couldn't manage it because they had chariots of iron. This made me smile because I, too, have a chariot of iron.

03-27-2001, 11:14 AM	#22
Chewbaccus Freethinker/booter Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 523	Aha Okay Dag, I read this over, and you were twisted up. Don't worry, I did the same thing until only a few months ago. See, the trick with the Bible is you have to read a passage word-for-word. All the "thee"'s and "shalt"'s prompt a reader to skim a great deal, and you get a misinterpretation. When Deuteronomy goes "and the LORD said, 'thou shalt...", it's not in a commanding, but a prophesizing manner. It's not "You must do this", but "When you're in this situation, you're gonna do this" Deut. looks like: "I will deliver your enemies into your hands, and you must smite them all", but means: "When I deliver your enemies into your hands, you will forsake my commandments and indulge in sin" It's a "Though you're my chosen people, you are still people and susceptible to temptation" lesson. ~Mike __________________ Like the wise man said: Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

04-26-2001, 04:31 AM	#27
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	i'm gonna take a quote from a guy on slashdot Creationism doesn't sound so crazy if you bend it and twist it until it matches the best that science can currently muster. And its true, for cryingout loud i doubt there have ever, been anotehr discussin on the length of a day except when it come sto the whole 6 days thing, its so stupid, stop trying to twist the facts to accomodate belifs, either a: have some REAL FAITH IN WHAT U BELIEVE, or give up. Yes this is flamebait but i jsut had to point that out, i'm not some athiest on a crusade to shit off all the religious types i can, i have respect for thsoe who can base thier lifearound abook, it takes alot of courage to tand up topopular opinion, myself i'm agnostic. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

04-26-2001, 10:15 AM	#28
serge * Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 85	NOT trolling.. I think most of this "debate" can be concluded by going to this site. (HUGE amount of work.. suggest you actually read some of it, before you flame.) And now.. the moment you've all been waiting for.. another jpg

03-23-2001, 11:21 AM	#17
Dagnabit High Propagandist Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 115	For example? You've picked the clearest possible statement there is, the word of the supreme being is "don't kill". However, there are numerous passages in this document that downright demand that you kill. And who dies? Aw man, who doesn't? The whole Torah is a kill-fest! Every child that hits or curses a parent. Both parties in adultery. Homosexuals. Any daughter of a priest who becomes a whore. Rebellious or disobedient sons. Rape victims who fail to cry out loudly because they are in a city! In a lot of these cases, the word is not just that these people are to be killed, but killed by fire or stoning. In Deuteronomy, the Lord explains that the Israelites are not only the special, chosen people, but that they should smite and utterly destroy the other nations. Why? Well these people worship other gods. So not only should the Israelites smite and utterly destroy, they must destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. Some of that, I'm sure, is against the Geneva convention.

03-26-2001, 11:49 AM	#19
Dagnabit High Propagandist Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 115	Deut. Chap. 7 is pretty much entirely about how much God loves the Israelites, and describes how Israelites should treat their enemy nations: smite and utterly destroy, do not intermarry, destroy the artifacts of other religions, whiz on their fig trees, etc. God then promises to take away diseases and infertility from the Israelites and will instead lay these "upon all them that hate thee", suggesting that tw should not cancel his major medical. In Deut. 20 He explains again that, make no mistake, the enemies are to be fully smited and their cities are to be considered an inheritance. Now, I should have said earlier, He specifies which peoples are the enemies. The following tribes are to be smited until dead: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. (Except in Deut: 20-17 he gives the Girgashites a pass.) That includes their women. Deut 21:10-14 explains very clearly that if, while taking captives amongst these enemies, you see a woman you like in the captives, you can take her home, shave her head, cut her nails, and screw her brains out, until you don't enjoy her any longer, at which time you set her free. (But don't SELL her, because THAT would be WRONG.)

03-27-2001, 01:55 PM	#24
Dagnabit High Propagandist Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 115	That's fair, Chew, and it's highly possible that I misinterpreted, since I'm no biblical scholar. I will admit to having read a chapter here and a chapter there to try to figure out what's going on. Tonight I will embark on reading the whole Deut. in order to see for myself what's going on. And I'll try to summarize in a new thread. By the way, I realize that I'm being downright blasphemous. I'm sorry if I hurt people's feelings, truly I am, but on the other hand I have to A) be myself, and B) be as skeptical and honest as I can be as I evaluate entire schools of thought. I doubt I could even participate in the thread without being blasphemous, but if I'm being ignorant, it reflects solely on me and not on anyone else here. I guess what I'm saying is that I can't question your faith, I can only question SOME of the points IN your faith. And I can't stop from doing that.

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