Muslims in Sweden

[DanaC]

The fringe tends to be what we hear about. Who's interested in people just going about their day-to-day lives, washing up, making tea and trying to get their kids into a good school?

[WabUfvot5]

I am but over here we don't exactly get Swedish news delivered to our doorstep :P

I'm just curious because the fringe has managed to do quite a bit there. Or else those who aren't in the fringe aren't doing much to dissuade the fringe. If the fringe were roundly condemned I doubt there would be this many problems.

[CaliforniaMama]

Originally Posted by Jebediah

Cuz it sounds like there is a lot of fringe in Sweden.

How could you tell, anyway? The Swedes are freakin' weird as it is . . .

Disclaimer: I'm married to one

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Jebediah

Where does the problem begin and where does it end? Would having them learn the language of the country be racist?

I don't know about the European experience, but that's one of the arguments against illegal Mexican, Central & South American immigrants to The United States being "forced" to learn English.

Our fault for not legislating a national language, I suppose, but stupid anyway.

[9th Engineer]

It's one thing to allow people to do business in whatever language they want, it's another thing entirely to think that we need to pay for translators to wait on their hand and foot so that they don't need to learn how to communicate with us.

[DanaC]

I very much doubt translators wait on their hands and feet:P

[fargon]

I can't understand why we have to bend to the will of foreign students. The building we live in is about 50% foreign students. Some of them have complained about my pick up, and some of of our neighbors Harley's, we have been told to park elsewhere. Last summer Keryx and I went to the beach, we were dressed appropriately, but we offended some clown because Keryx was not covered properly. I hope he enjoys his life in his Muslim country.

[9th Engineer]

Diversity is all well and good, but it's not particularly valuable for its own sake. It needs to stimulate the existing culture and improve the current situation, not create new demands and problems. That's why food and clothing (for the most part) don't really need regulation, but communication issues are critical. If someone can't speak the native lanugage then they can't get an education, get paperwork such as drivers licences, or communicate with people like doctors. Who learns whos language depends on which party is moving into a preexisiting system, if you come to me then you speak my language, if I go to you then I speak yours.
Melting pot or not, all immigrants must become American in at least some sense of the word. It's not ok to just transplant a little section of your home country here and pretend you're there. That's why I don't have any tollerence for the Mexican or Cuban immigrants who come here expecting to sap our economy to send money back to their country.
Immigrant Muslims in Sweden can keep their old customs as long as they still allow them to be productive members of Swedish society, if not then they should really go somewhere they fit into better. It is the newcommers responsibility to prove he has a reason to be here and an ability to add something useful of his own, not the other way around.

[CaliforniaMama]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Who learns whos language depends on which party is moving into a preexisiting system, if you come to me then you speak my language, if I go to you then I speak yours. ~snip~ It is the newcommers responsibility to prove he has a reason to be here and an ability to add something useful of his own, not the other way around.

Excellent points!

[DanaC]

Unless of course you are British. British people have no right to make that argument as we are almost uniformly unwilling to learn anybody else's language. Our usual strategy if moving to a foreign land, is to find out where all the other British people live and set up camp as near to where we can reasonably expect to purchase a cooked English breakfast as we possibly can. The next stage in our assimilation is to learn how to pronounce a couple of necessary words to allow us to travel between british enclaves within that country, avoid any real contact with the locals other than in a service capacity, get homesick after about eight years and move back home.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unless of course you are British. British people have no right to make that argument as we are almost uniformly unwilling to learn anybody else's language. Our usual strategy if moving to a foreign land, is to find out where all the other British people live and set up camp as near to where we can reasonably expect to purchase a cooked English breakfast as we possibly can. The next stage in our assimilation is to learn how to pronounce a couple of necessary words to allow us to travel between british enclaves within that country, avoid any real contact with the locals other than in a service capacity, get homesick after about eight years and move back home.

Is this your personal experience or your armchair perception of the British experience? It definitely is not my family's experience. They emigrated from Britain to another country (not the U.S.) and integrated, refusing to remain self-consciously British. Why? Because life was too hard in Britain and they had to leave, and they were grateful for another chance in a new country. Life was very hard for them for a long time, but still better than before.

You can't make generalizations about people, even if they're your own people.

If you're so down on the British not learning a new language after eight years, I hope you're at least as critical of the many immigrants to Canada and the U.S. who live in their new country forty or fifty years and never learn a new language.

I agree with the principle that if you move to my country, you learn my language; if I move to your country, I learn yours.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yup.

[DanaC]

I was basing that on a number of people I have known. Also the fact that we have the worst record in Europe for language learning.

Of course you are right about the generalisation not holding true for all. I was using such a generalisation for comic effect. There are always going to be people for whom that generalisation simply doesn't fit. But our reputation for an unwillingness to intergrate in other countries has a grain of truth to it nonetheless, despite the exceptions. I once went on holiday with a couple who really were the stereotypical Brits-abroad. I have fond memories of Neil trying to buy a bottle of milk in a French shop by just shouting Milk in a louder and louder voice and trying to mime milking a cow. I also had a work colleague who returned from somewhere in Spain after five years because she was so homesick. She'd tried to learn Spanish but was hopeless at languages and eventually gave up. My ex-neighbour from a few years ago lived in Dubai and never left the anglo quarter of the city. I asked her what it was like in Dubai, expecting some sort of interesting observation...she said "It was dead hot". Meanwhile, TV's obsession with reality TV gives us programmes like "Start a New Life", which follows people selling up all their stuff and moving abroad.....usually to end up miserable and isolated and ready to return after a year or two.

I know that's not the whole picture. My Auntie lived in Spain for 14 years and she and my cousins are fluent Spanish speakers.....but that wouldn't have been as funny:P


As to being down on people for not learning languages. I am not. I know that for some people, learning a new language is difficult. Some people simply find it impossible to take on board new languages. I have no real problem with people moving to a new country and not learning the language. I do however, derive some humour from the fact that the English are so notorious on that score and yet so lacking in sympathy for those who come here and fail to learn our language.

I taught ESOL for a little while (English for Speakers of Other Languages). English is not an easy language to learn, if your mother tongue is not of the European family. The Arabic speakers and the Urdu speakers found it very very difficult. One woman I taught had been in the UK for nearly 12 years and still couldn't get her head around it. After six months I would ask her "Where do you live?"and she would answer "yes". She got so frustrated, bless her. Different people find it easier or more difficult to learn languages. One guy, from Iran, arrived here with no English and was damn near fluent at the end of a year.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I agree with your point that if I moved to another country I should make an effort to at least learn a working knowledge of the prevailing language.

I say the same thing to people that come here.

[Ibby]

I sure as hell xiang, ni yao qu bie de guo, ni shu yau xue ta men de hua.