Jesus Camp

[Meiso]

I went to a Christian primary school and, while the school was officially secular, my secondary school was also Christian (C of E). All assemblies were Christian (without much regard for those in the school who -weren't- Christian) and we had RE lessons which were very much designed to promote Christianity. I've not got a huge problem with this; I understand the arguments for it, although I found it a little baffling that we also had lessons designed to try and promote autonomous thinking (though I am not inferring Christianity and autonomous thought are mutually exclusive, I found it odd we were told what we should believe but then told we should make up our own minds).

Anyway, I had a Christian education but I have grown up not to be Christian. The main cause for this was the manner of the Christian figureheads. I remember in my primary school, when children expressed doubt in CofE, the Rev would get very, very, very mad. I mean, throwing things across the room mad. By secondary school, those that expressed that they did not wish to take part in Christian assemblies or sing hymns were subjected to ridicule infront of the whole school (usually forced to choose between what would result in weeks of detention or to get up on stage in front of 1000+ pupils and sing a a hymn solo). Mercifully, this stopped when we progressed through the years.

I didn't, and still don't, understand how a truth which is supposed to be self-evident in the world (e.g. God) is forced upon children. If I were to discover faith in an omnipotent being, I thing the relationship with him would be far more profound if i were find it myself and then do the whole letting him into my life type of thing.

When i see things such as that documentary, I just want to know why the camp is doing it - for the souls of the children, or to bolster the support of their agenda?

Ah well.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by limey

I grew up an atheist (not with Pie's splendid pedigree, however!) and I had a framework. What I really resent is how, in Britain, the Church of England is seen as being the moral arbiter on every questions, as if it were not possible to have a moral stance on a question without the Christian god telling you what to think. You, Sundae Girl, seem to be saying the same thing. Tell m this isn't true!

And to Pie too - I think perhaps it was the times I was brought up in. I grew up under Thatcher's Government, and in those days it seemed like the only publicly recognised credo was "Greed is good" (yes I know that's from Wall Street, but it was accepted long before it was written). Whereas I was brought up on the Gospel of St Matthew - If a stranger asks you for your shirt, give him your coat as well. It was at odds with the times and made me feel my framework came from religion.

I do accept my statement was sweeping, and I hope that if I did have children I'd be able to give them my own framework. But I stand by being indebted to Christianity - as much as my parents' humanism to soften it - for my views today.

Also, Pie - my parents didn't lie to me when they told me God loved me no matter what I did. I don't believe in their God - but they did at the time, and so did I. My parents gave me the same message of course (they loved me) but parents are human and can't help showing that sometimes they wish you had a Pause button.

I am glad to hear from people with an atheist upbringing though. It gives me hope.

[Pangloss62]

When i see things such as that documentary, I just want to know why the camp is doing it

Sadly, but not surprisingly, the motivation is self-centered. They are indoctrinating their children because of THEIR religious fanaticism, and using them to create the world THEY want. It's sick. It's child abuse. I will say no more about it.

But hello Pie (and Meiso). I've NEVER met a 3rd-generation atheist. I would also be proud. My father, also an atheist, never really told my Catholic mother that he was one. After married, however, the separation began. That rift forced me and my siblings to jump to one side or the other, and despite my mother's almost desperate attempts (that are still going on!), we all jumped, at least philisophically speaking, to my father's side. Not ONE of the six children are true believers, but we are all confirmed Catholics. I think I have to go to through the Vatican to be excommunicated; I don't like the idea of being "confirmed," even if it's only symbolic. Think of it like removing a big tattoo that your mom gave you.

[Pie]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

It was at odds with the times and made me feel my framework came from religion.

I do accept my statement was sweeping, and I hope that if I did have children I'd be able to give them my own framework. But I stand by being indebted to Christianity - as much as my parents' humanism to soften it - for my views today.

I understand. As adults, we have reached our points of view by incorporating many perspectives around us. I would be an utter fool to say that there was nothing of value in a religious outlook.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Also, Pie - my parents didn't lie to me when they told me God loved me no matter what I did. I don't believe in their God - but they did at the time, and so did I. My parents gave me the same message of course (they loved me) but parents are human and can't help showing that sometimes they wish you had a Pause button.

In your case, the "security blanket" worked. I do know people who are agnostic or athiest today, and are bitter at being force-fed as children. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

I am glad to hear from people with an atheist upbringing though. It gives me hope.

Thank you for your post, Sundae. I am guilty of my own knee-jerk reactions to the whole "moral framework" question. It goes back to a conversation I never had with my mother-in-law to be... And unfortunately, I never will resolve the issue. She passed away twelve years ago.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Brianna

There are a ton of lapsed Catholics on this board.

Yep, still recovering!

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

(btw I got drunk & sucked cock @ Greenbelt. Just not at my 1st one. I guess the debbil told me to do it)

This one time, at Jesus camp...

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Brianna

There are a ton of lapsed Catholics on this board.

I've been riding my bike and losing weight, so you may want to revise your comment.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Brianna

That is not true. I am proof. The Universe DOES love you. It even loves Pie.

Bri, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the universe is just using you for sex.

But don't despair, it's the universe who should feel cheap and ashamed for taking advantage of your trust. We all love you.

[footfootfoot]

Limey and Meiso both point to one of the often ignored aspects of religion today and that is those who defeated their adversaries got to expound their views and use their modus operandi to enforce their own policies. Either through implication or stated outright religious leaders would have you believe that they are doing god's work and will, it must be because we kicked the shit out of our opponents back in AD 400 or so and then we set up the council of Nicaea (sp?) to get rid of anyone who says or thinks differently than we.

Just because it's the current paradigm doesn't mean it's true or right.

What does this have to do with anything anyway? I'm gonna go back to work.

[Pangloss62]

What does this have to do with anything anyway? I'm gonna go back to work.

Well said.

[xoxoxoBruce]

WTF, I don't understand your consternation at parents teaching their children what they believe is good for them.

I know of several couples who "teach" their children about the world around them, consequences of actions, etc. Religion enters into it only as an anthropological concept: "Some people believe..." Some would say such "godless" teaching is bad and provides no moral or ethical foundation, but I disagree. I can think of a lot of things that "have been going on since the beginning of time;" that's a sorry basis for keeping them going.

Several couples? Out of how many Billion people? C'mon, parents have always done this....parents have a duty to pass knowledge to their kids. Just because you don't agree with their views doesn't make it wrong for them to teach their kids what they believe to be right. Saying that's a sorry basis for keeping them going, assumes they are wrong in what they are doing, but they don't believe they are.If they did they probably wouldn't be doing it, would they?

The only thing that film shows is parents are modern, savy, keeping up with progress, with todays trends.....outsourcing.

[footfootfoot]

I just watched the trailer.

First thought was about the woman comparing the camps where children are taught to lob grenades to her camp. My guess is that these christian soldiers will get their grenade lessons later, after they are thoroughly indoctrinated.

My second thought is that the Jesuits (whom I admire quite a bit) have cottoned onto this concept a long time ago. There is a reason they open schools rather than do evangelical work. To paraphrase "give me a child's mind until they are seven and you can have them after that". Notice how young most of the kids are.

thirdly, I agree with Bruce. There isn't any thing wrong with parents passing on their beliefs to their children. Yes, we may not think that a parent should teach their child to hate or lob grenades, but if that is the case then we ought to open our own damn camps and teach what we believe rather than try to shut down other people's camps.

Finally, judging by the way the trailer was cut (edited) my guess is that the "documentary" isn't all that a) impartial and b)sympathetic.

[Pangloss62]

There isn't any thing wrong with parents passing on their beliefs to their children.

Bollocks! Pure Bollocks!

"Niggers are lazy and inferior." "Jews are stingy and control all the banks." "People who deny God are going to Hell." "Women should submit to their husbands." "Our faith is the ONLY true faith, and if you reject it, you too will burn in Hell." All "beliefs" that are passed on to children to this day.

"Beliefs" are just that; they have no basis in reality.

Bollocks!!

[footfootfoot]

Pangloss, the beliefs you cite are hardly worth passing along to children, no one should argue that. It becomes a stickier matter when someone dictates to you what beliefs you should pass along to your children. If the balance of power were different would you want to be compelled by others to pass along:

"Niggers are lazy and inferior." "Jews are stingy and control all the banks." "People who deny God are going to Hell." "Women should submit to their husbands." "Our faith is the ONLY true faith, and if you reject it, you too will burn in Hell.

I don't think so. As I stated earlier, you should feel compelled to start passing your beliefs along and no one should stop you from mounting a public awareness campaign that the racist beliefs you cited are pure bollocks. Pure, sweaty bollocks at that.

[Pangloss62]

I just think parents should not convince their children of the existence of supernatural phenomena, which form the basis for most every religion. Teach knowledge, skills, empirical truths, don't indoctrinate. Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."