Congress Wasting Time & Money

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Look at the BullShit that Congress is wasting our money on.

You dare question the basic function of the US Congress?

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Superstition, Bigotry, Hate and the desire to see others continue to suffer because they cannot understand separation of church and state

So many of the issues swirling in and out of debate in congress are purely serving as a base to point fingers in the upcoming election, pure and simple. Except, in the last serveral years, I've noticed that more of the hot button issues like gay marriage and proposals of a religious nature swamp the news and voter opinion polls so heavily that they successfully push all of the genuine issues from the media. In the last presidential election, I heard more argument and debate involving gay marriage than anything involving the war or the constitution. The more congress debates emotional issues that the public has a tough time ignoring, the more people simply accept the changes taking place in basic law and world policy. Talk of the Iraq war, The PATRIOT Act, geneva convention violations, wiretapping issues, etc, are repeatedly pushed from the spotlight until people begin to shrug and say things like, "the government was probably already doing it, anyway", "this bit of bad is probably part of a bigger picture we don't see and goals we cannot comprehend", and "these small changes in policy don't affect me or my family, directly."

Everytime a truly threatening, major issue comes up, some local lawmaker proposes some bullshit law that "defines/protects American values" (marriage), tackles an old issue that has been a problem for many years (illegal immigration), or puts some other petty shit that is blatantly unconstitutional (flag desecration law). The hotly emotional issue is thrust into the spotlight and possibly to the supreme court while smaller changes are descretely made and the public turns their heads from massive global issues. They're boiling a frog, here.

Really, don't you think the public has become unusually comfortable in recent years with a war that will never end, CIA/NSA domestic spying, and a government and military above the law? Don't let any of those issues distract you from the huge percentage of the population that is threatening the tiny minority of christians in this country with their efforts to "ban" prayer from public schools.

[Kitsune]

Quick, we must stop sexual predators from hurting your children. Section 606 of the bill introduces an interesting law:

(Sec. 606) Prohibits the production of obscene materials for sale or distribution in interstate commerce.

[9th Engineer]

Don't let any of those issues distract you from the huge percentage of the population that is threatening the tiny minority of christians in this country with their efforts to "ban" prayer from public schools.

When was the last time you looked at the religious demographics in the US??? The majority of Americans identify themselves as some denomination of Christianity.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

When was the last time you looked at the religious demographics in the US??? The majority of Americans identify themselves as some denomination of Christianity.

Shh -- I was being sarcastic, there.

[9th Engineer]

damn. sarcasm meter must've broke. I've gotta stop buying Chinese surplus:p

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

When was the last time you looked at the religious demographics in the US??? The majority of Americans identify themselves as some denomination of Christianity.

Good & so what, separation of church and state is still a foundation of this nation.

[9th Engineer]

Most christians are not looking to turn other people into defacto converts by writing the religion into law. However, when things come up for vote they vote based on principles that are not part of the doctrine of their church. Most of these principles are not unique to any religion and can be brought to the voters box without any mingling of church and state. take the first commandment for example "Thou shall not kill". Even though it's placement in the religion should rule it out for use in law, we allow it to be used because we understand that it is rediculous to suggest that telling people we don't tolerate murder is the same forcing them to follow Christianity. Before screaming that Christians are trying to convert everyone else try checking up on where the principle in question fits into the larger picture.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Before screaming that Christians are trying to convert everyone else try checking up on where the principle in question fits into the larger picture.

The "Christian" Church teaches all sorts of things things that have nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, and the "Christians" vote, based on that. It isn't technically Christianity, but they believe it is right because they heard it in a Christian Church.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

take the first commandment for example "Thou shall not kill". Even though it's placement in the religion should rule it out for use in law,

Um, no. Separation of church and state isn't "if a religion agrees then you can't do it." It's perfectly OK for a religion to agree with a law, it just can't be the sole justification.

[Flint]

I think you know what I mean.

I didn't say they vote exclusively "based on that."

:::sings::: words put in my mouth, with your ass-u-ming, these are a few of my of my least favorite things

EDIT:

[xoxoxoBruce]

I didn't say they vote exclusively "based on that."

No, you didn't say exclusively. You also didn't say, partially. You just said

snip~ and the "Christians" vote, based on that. ~snip

I believe you said that, because you want to reinforce your position that anyone that belongs to a church is a robot, that does what they're told and can't disagree with anything the church suggests...... or think for themselves.
Am I wrong?

[Flint]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Am I wrong?

Yes.

9th Engineer commented that Christian values often overlap with secular values, and suggested that this presents a difficulty in separation of the two. I added that there is an inherent blurriness within the scope of Christian values that makes this separation an impossibility before you even cross over from one side to the other. In other words, Christian values are not well-defined enough to be contrasted against an opposing set.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Flint

9th Engineer commented that Christian values often overlap with secular values,

Old English law overlaps with American law. Therefore we should promote English law?

A society where god is found in science, math, and other studies of god's law is also a society that can select from historical lessons only that which works and is appropriate. Christian values are flawed in that those values are somehow written in stone - cannot change as other men learn more of god's laws. Christian values are perverted because they are introverted. Mankind takes from Christian values, Muslim values, René Decartes, Buddist values, Aristotle, science discoveries, legal principles, Chinese philosophy, mistakes from history, etc to create American values.

What is fundamental to American values and what is so foreign to Christian values? Innovation. Everything that defines a patriotic American is about innovation. Christian values would still have us claiming a sun goes around the earth and the moon is self illuminating.

One early principle that became part of American values are the reason why the Ten Commandments worked. American values don't worship the Ten Commandments. American values respect principles that made Ten Commandments a new Constitution for that early human society. We also don't worship Greek philosophy and their gods. But we take and learn from their lessons as well. American values are about innovation - how we worship the real god.

[Ibby]

Wow, a coherent and almost brilliant post, from tw of all people!

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yeah, he does that once in awhile. It's always a pleasure.