Tragedy Begs Question of a Merciful God

[WabUfvot5]

God was merciful in this. If he wasn't they would have died in a fire.

[MaggieL]

And in other news, Elsposde was cited by the grammar police for abuse of the idiom "begging the question". Now there's a tragedy for you . :-)

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer?

Not only that, but following the "kite of death" thread's example, CPSC should drain the river...or at least completely enclose it with plexi shieds bearing prominent warning labels.

[wolf]

Because of familiarity with swimming pools, etc., people rarely respect the power of water. I can easily envision these non-swimming kids being in water no higher than their knees or waists, but in a river that depth can still have a fast current.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It's a horrible tragedy, and the teens who jumped in to save the first kid were brave and heroic. However, this is just irritating me more and more as I think about it:

Edris Moore lost four children. In age order they are: Damon Johnson, 17; Ryan Mason, 14; Dana Johnson, 13; and Bryant Barnes, 10. She also has four additional children, and I would bet any sum of money that none of them has the last name Mason, Barnes, or even Johnson (despite the fact that he makes repeat appearances between other children). I just... birth control. BIRTH CONTROL, dammit.

Choose to be irritated if you must, but realize the source of your irritation is your own assumption, your implication as to the parentage of these children. Not all my children have the same last name, nor do I share the same last name as all my six siblings. You wanna talk about my mama? My wife? I didn't think so. What, specifically, irritates you about this?

[Pangloss62]

Fobble was commenting on the propensity of urban black women to have many children with different men and never get married. These "baby-daddies" come and go, but generally do not spend a lot of time being real "daddies." This is a very real problem. I work with many black women and they are not afraid to discuss this issue. Most of them have very middle-class values, are married, and see themselves as completely different than the single moms with several different baby daddies. That said, they know first-hand of that sub-culture and bemoan its existence and growth. Just the other day, I overheard our black mailroom clerk yelling at her daughter on the phone: "You had a baby for a check! You had a baby for a check!" She was pissed because she, a single mom herself, now is a grandmother to a single mom, and who knows how many more grandkids she will have. I think 8 kids is a bit much for any mom, let alone a single black mom in St. Louis. Drive through East St. Louis and you will wonder how anybody can come out of there unscathed, either psychologically or economically. Do these women "have babies for a check" ? I'm sure many do. Some do not. I can look out my window right now and see six or seven single teen black moms with one kid in a stroller and another by her side; sometimes three or four kids. They are not waiting for the bus to take them to swimming lessons.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by BigV

Choose to be irritated if you must, but realize the source of your irritation is your own assumption, your implication as to the parentage of these children. Not all my children have the same last name, nor do I share the same last name as all my six siblings. You wanna talk about my mama? My wife? I didn't think so. What, specifically, irritates you about this?

It's true, I'm assuming they are each fathered by a different man, except the two Johnsons, and that they are not just a complicated "blended family" of some sort. And that is perhaps unfair--after all, my two stepkids have the same mother and father and they don't even have the same last name as each other. My assumption that she is "having babies for a check" as Pangloss puts it is judgmental and unreasonable.

But I do think it is reasonable to suggest that a woman living in poverty in urban St. Louis and having her eighth child is irresponsible, to say the least, and has no excuse not to be using birth control.

...And maybe they're not even all her biological children, maybe she takes in all these kids from bad homes who would otherwise have no one to care for them. Maybe she's a veritable saint. I have no idea.

Pangloss
This ' baby-daddy' scene can be seen all over the Caribbean too . As do many others , I believe ( know ?)that it is linked to the history of slavery . The concept of personal identity , language and family was shattered into tiny pieces and that traumatism lives on . I do not have the exact dates to hand , but Wilberforce and Schoelcher were only beginning to be listened to in the mid nineteenth century . This is very recent , as you know .

Please do not think I am being critical of America yet again . I am perfectly aware of the fact that the wealth and culture of Liverpool , Bristol , le Havre , Bordeaux , La Rochelle is based on the slave-trade .

[wolf]

You have a gross misunderstanding of American culture, and of Black American Culture. This has nothing to do with slavery. The Baby Daddy phenomenon is relatively recent, as the sexual mores of this country have changed significantly in the recent past (let's just say 50 years, for argument's sake, although this particular trending overlays both the notion of 'free love' and the feminist movement. As out of wedlock childbirth has become less stigmatizing, more children have this status, and remain with the birth mother, where in the past a young lady would have been quietly sent away until the time of her disgrace was over and the adoption was finalized.

I am listening , Wolf .

[Pangloss62]

My assumption that she is "having babies for a check" as Pangloss puts it is judgmental and unreasonable.

I don't know if you assumed she was "having babies for a check;" I only know that many women regardless of race, certainly realize that they will get government assistance if they do; that's just the way it is. Let's say it's one of several factors that goes into the "choice" to have unprotected sex with men to which these young women are not married.

Now, before we divide into the "It's all about slavery" and "Johnson's Great Society created this problem" camps, we should consider how both may have contributed to what I see as the problem of too many unwed black mothers with several children fathered by different men (I used the italics for myself because some anthropologists argue that there is nothing intrinsically "bad" or "immoral" about such a subculture; it's just different).

When one considers not just slavery, but the decades of inequality that followed, it would be hard to argue that black American society does not still have some deeply imbedded cultural and psychological attributes related to that history that contribute to the contemporary situation under discussion.

It could also be argued that trying to help poor urban blacks to attain economic viability by giving them money might have the tendency to create a sense of entitlement and/or a slothful lifestyle. It's all very sad because this nation had many examples of viable, self-sufficient black communities with strong families. What happened? I don't know completely. The urban environment does not provide a good (legal) economic ladder, especially for young men. The dynamic between the young men and young women is pathological for many, and I see this dynamic every single day here in downtown Atlanta. It's scary because these kids are the future of this city. There were more cases of child exploitation (pimping) in Atlanta last year than ANY American city. Is the vibrant -if disturbing- hip-hop/crunk culture here a result of this behavior or a cause of it? All these young black dudes sell their own crunk music on the streets down here, hoping for fame and fortune, but it's the lifestyle of the latter that drives them, not some wish to become an upstanding citizen or dutiful father. There are plenty of the latter, but they're moving out to the burbs, and I don't blame them.

I just want to tell you that I am reading what you have just said very carefully , Pangloss . I shall read it again and again and then reply .

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

I don't know if you assumed she was "having babies for a check;" I only know that many women regardless of race, certainly realize that they will get government assistance if they do; that's just the way it is. Let's say it's one of several factors that goes into the "choice" to have unprotected sex with men to which these young women are not married.

I was assuming that, Pangloss, and in general I agree with you. I was just acknowledging that I don't actually know for sure that that is what this woman was doing.

[Pangloss62]

Understood.

Austin is probably one of the better places to be in Texas, by the way.

[Clodfobble]

No, it's the best!

[Ibby]

Austin isn't Texas. It's as Texan as Hong Kong is Chinese.