Police don't have to knock, CNN article

[DanaC]

But I'll stop hi-jacking this thread now :P

So, how bout that? No need to knock!

[DanaC]

population of the UK is about 60 million vs. 260 million here.

:P

[DanaC]

Seriously, Maggie. You'll have a nice time here. The crime rate isn't as high as it sounds in th news. We have very few knife attacks as well. Mostly that sort of thing affects very localised 'hotspots' and usually involves young lads and lasses in difficult areas.

For the most part it's a very safe country.

*smiles*

Bit like...If I were to holiday in America...I would imagine I'd be fine if I went to Ohio, but not necessarily if I went to South Central:P Liekwise, if you go to most places in the UK you'll be fine. Just be careful if you are planning a holiday on a run down Council estate in Hackney:P

[MaggieL]

I'm not seriously worried...I just resent being disarmed involuntarily, even for a few days. I won't go to New Jersey for exactly that reason. Or South Central. ;-)

http://www.reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

[DanaC]

Personally I would feel in more danger if I had a gun in my bag than without :P Statistics have shown that when someone pulls a gun in a conflict, they are actually most likely to be the one that gets shot with it ( this carries through on knives as well).

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Speaking as an armed citizen myself, I think you should consider your position before you shoot a cop who has "annouced his presence and authority" and then forcibly entered your home three to five seconds later. I think the court would take a very dim view of your justification for deadly force.

At the same time I'm mindful that a number of home invasions have occurred where the bad guys have *claimed* to be LEOs on entry.

The consitutional privacy issue here used to queer the search in the absence of exigent circumstances. Now apparently it doesn't even do that. But you'd better be prepared to show you were in reasonable fear of death or grevious bodily harm before you shoot someone.

Some interesting background here.

Google FL Castle Doctrine. Anyone can call out "I'm a cop", its what I would do if I were home invading.

Having to post these again...
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.”
-- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788).


“God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
-- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Google FL Castle Doctrine.

Hey , I'm one of the co-founders of the Delaware Valley chapter of the Pink Pistols. I know what the Castle Doctrine is, and we've had it here in PA a heckuva lot longer than Florida has. (I hold a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit as well as a Pennsylvania Licence to Carry Firearms, by the way). I'm a firm believer in RKBA and your right to defend your home from invasion.

I'm just reminding you that if you shoot a cop who has announced himself while executing a warrant, you'd better be able to convince a judge that you reasonably believed him to not be a cop, even if he didn't give you a lot of time to think about it before crashing the door.

Annoucing on the record in a public forum that you've already decided to shoot first certainly won't help your case.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Hey , I'm one of the co-founders of the Delaware Valley chapter of the Pink Pistols. I know what the Castle Doctrine is, and we've had it here in PA a heckuva lot longer than Florida has. (I hold a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit as well as a Pennsylvania Licence to Carry Firearms, by the way). I'm a firm beleiver in RKBA and your right to defend your home from invasion.

I'm just reminding you that if you shoot a cop who has announced himself while executing a warrant, you'd better be able to convince a judge that you reasonably believed him to not be a cop, even if he didn't give you a lot of time to think about it before crashing the door.

Annoucing on the record in a public forum that you've already decided to shoot first certainly won't help your case.

If I don't see the warrant, the cop and their badge... they are not a cop.
I am not announcing anything, I am saying that I will shoot home invaders posing as cops barging into my home. I don't know who they are until they show me who they are.
Of course this will be moot soon, our family is moving back onto decent property where they will have to stop at a gate and approach the house only with our consent. (Parents and my family are combining homes soon and making it chair friendly). This is how I grew-up, I miss having more space and cannot wait. I also miss the security of a compound.
Most police have become confused about who they work for and who's rights they are protecting. They don't see that protect and serve on their cars any longer. The rights of the citizens must come first, always.
I had a cop pull me over once and would not tell me why. He became very belligerent about getting my ID and reg. I asked him why he pulled me over, over and over again, he just kept getting angrier. I finally told him that I was going to leave if he did not tell me why he pulled me over. "Either charge me with something or I will leave".
Turns out I had a light out over my license plate, but that was not the real problem... I am white and he wanted to know why I stopped in the "neighborhood" I was in. I told him none of his damn business (I was looking for something in the car) and asked if I was going to get a ticket. He said no and get the light fixed. It was just loose.
He was just being an ass. Nothing more, he could have been polite, but did not feel I had any rights... this is common. I questioned him, politely at first. Regardless of that, he was upset by it, it should be the other way around. He should have just pulled me over and informed me of the light being out and that should have been the end of it.
If you don't see a crime, it did not happen... why I was in a certain neighborhood is none of his damn business. Profiling is a sickness we need to end.
Sad that the cops that do their jobs the way they are supposed to are today's best heroes, and those training them are teaching them to destroy what this nation was built upon.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I'm not seriously worried...I just resent being disarmed involuntarily, even for a few days. I won't go to New Jersey for exactly that reason. Or South Central. ;-)

Just out of curiosity -- did something happen to you to make you fear being out in public this much without a weapon or are the areas where you go really that bad?

[Griff]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Sad that the cops that do their jobs the way they are supposed to are today's best heroes, and those training them are teaching them to destroy what this nation was built upon.

If cops enter your house with no knock and you are not engaged in any unlawful activities you're going to have to assume they are not legit. That sounds like a bad deal for everybody. Someone is very likely to get hurt. It seems like aside from the terror stuff, the home invasions probably target drugs. There's yet another reason to end the drug war.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Just out of curiosity -- did something happen to you to make you fear being out in public this much without a weapon or are the areas where you go really that bad?

I do live near some bad areas. But let's not confuse "being fearful" with wishing to assert my right to self-defense, and resenting interference with that right. Did you visit the Pink Pistols site?

The State has no legitimate interest in disarming me, yet too many small-s states (and some smaller jursidictions like Philadelphia and San Francisco) still want to do exactly that. I see no reason to go through the additional hassle to secure my weapon in order to travel to a place where the government doesn't trust me with it. (I'm making a special limited exception for the UK for a few days because that's where my daughter wants to get married.)

Not trusting citizens to be armed is a remarkable touchstone for other crappy attitudes on the part of government.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Griff

If cops enter your house with no knock and you are not engaged in any unlawful activities you're going to have to assume they are not legit. That sounds like a bad deal for everybody. Someone is very likely to get hurt. It seems like aside from the terror stuff, the home invasions probably target drugs. There's yet another reason to end the drug war.

The "home invasions" referred to upthread weren't by cops, they were by robbers claiming to be cops while entering. And the case cited in the CNN article did not involve a no-knock entry, although some folks seem to be trying very hard to portray it as if it did.

All that said, the "war on drugs" is a crock.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I do live near some bad areas. But let's not confuse "being fearful" with wishing to assert my right to self-defense, and resenting interference with that right.

...

Not trusting citizens to be armed is a remarkable touchstone for other crappy attitudes on the part of government.

My sentiments as well. I don't carry, but I do own firearms. There is great value in the State's administrators knowing that the people still retain the capacity to use force. A State monopoly on such is not how people stay free.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I do live near some bad areas. But let's not confuse "being fearful" with wishing to assert my right to self-defense, and resenting interference with that right. Did you visit the Pink Pistols site?

That's cool. I'm just interested in people's reasons for carrying even though, in truth, you don't have to have one at all to do so.

Funny, that: I used to carry because I traversed some bad neighborhoods, but it was the fear of local law enforcement that caused me to stop packing.

[Ibby]

When it comes to gun control, I feel protected enough that everyone else has one. The bad guys don't know that I dont. Even if I did, I wouldnt use it.

EDIT: unless my girlfriend is threatened. There'll be holy hell to pay for anyone who threatens her. But thats a different matter. Kinda.