XXXXX Them to Hell! New Katrina Video

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

So you think they thought the levees would fail? Or that Brown, who until this point has been a favorite target of the anti-Bush crowd, is now a martyr? Or maybe that there was something they could have done in the 24 hours between Brown's warning and Katrina's landfall? I'm always willing to believe that a politician has lied, or at least that their handlers have caused them to. But I still don't know what the point of this information is, beyond "SEE?!?!? BUSH IS TEH EVILZ!!"

You think the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor would have responded if Bush had said, "You guys are hosed. We're sending our fleet of federal City Evacuation Busses to forcibly remove all your citizens from their homes, because your levees are going to fail tomorrow"? You think that a response of any kind on the federal level would have prevented the hurricane from doing the damage it did? Again, what did you want them to do with the information? Remember, it came from a "horse breeder with no experience" or whatever you were calling Brown a couple weeks ago.

They KNEW the levees were likely to fail. They didn't just THINK it. In regard to Brown, I didn't give an opinion, I was merely asking people's take on him now.

As far as the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor, I think they would have jumped up and down and said, "THANK YOU, Mr. President! We'll get the word out to our people right away!" The mayor of NOLA had been screaming about the levees for years. The Mayor KNEW better than any other official there what a terrible plight N.O. was in.

Yeah, it ticks me off when the President of this country tells bald faced lies to the people. I'd have respected Jr. a little if he'd been man enough to say, "Well, we had conflicting information," or "Federal response was terrible, and I am sorry. Here's how we are going to fix it."

If you can't admit to a problem, then you sure as hell aren't going to be taking any steps to solve it, now are you?

PS Yeah, Foot, I've been meaning to PM Glatt about that nasty habit of his.

[tw]

Quotes and other information previously posted in The Cellar at
Tape: Bush, Chertoff Warned Before Katrina.

[wolf]

Mari, if you (or someone you know) is getting an actual studio apartment for $350/month, you're living in paradise.

Most of the folks I know on public assistance (the ones without section 8 eligibility) are paying around $500/month for a single room, shared bathroom, no stove, no refrigerator.

[fargon]

When I first met Keryx, I was meking approx. $65K. I left that job and moved in with her. We have had ups and downs, but we remain together. now she works for a public utility and does very well. There was a time that I was sick with with no hope and homeless I made bad decisions to. Going into the service instead of collage was first. The nature of my condition is such that it comes and goes. We have a relationship that people dream about.

Let us get back on topic. Most of the people "stuck" in NOLA chose to stay, for whatever reason. It was thier choice. When I see footage of CG helo crews doing Katrina rescues alot of people do not want to leave thier homes. CG(Aux) members that were there have told me that they had to call on active duty Coastguardsmen to get people to leave. I am not saying that all people had the means to leave, but it seems to me that a vast majority stayed for thier own reasons.
To see me and a little of what I am about goto www.frappr.com/fargon

[busterb]

I lived in Plaquemines Parish, LA for years and lost all but my car in Betsy, 1995? (Opps 1965) Of course that parish was, is ruled by a few. Any one remember Judge Perez on tv? It's a low place with only one road out. When you get people comming from offshore the road can get clogged becaused there were only 2 bridges across the river from the westbank. I remember a few times on IS 10 where the assholes turned the 2 lanes into 5, because Betsy was fresh in their minds. Anyway from the WaPo. "Neighboring Plaquemines Parish, by contrast, issued its order Aug. 27, helping to hold the number of storm deaths there at three."
BTW What I meant about ruled. You couldn't buy rolling papers or anything like that in stores. The jail at Point-a-la hatch? was rough I heard.

When I first worked offshore the oil cos. didn't pay much attention to storms, but after they got it broke off in ther butts a few times they learned. That became a pain. Living where i'm now at. Sometimes you would be out of, say Camron,LA and get sent in. Time you got home was a call to come back.
Stay if you like. It always gave me a few days off.

[wolf]

New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.

Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.

[FloridaDragon]

Originally Posted by wolf

New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.

Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.

I knew I liked you Wolf! Bingo ... it is easy to blame the person in charge at the moment for a long history of mistakes ... I find Bush at fault for a lot of things these days (like what I think is a mismanaged conflict in Iraq, regardless of whether we should be there or not) but I do not hold him responsible for not rebuilding the city of NO or forceably evacuating the 20-30k people who were either too dumb or too poor to evacuate. Now he is culpable and so it the government at large (including that numbnut governor) for not having a better response AFTER the storm.

[tw]

Originally Posted by wolf

New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.

Well the levees did what they were intended to do. Levees were not constructed nor intended for this storm. Despite comments from a mental midget president, everyone expected the levees to be breached - and they were. The mental midget was told that repeatedly.

Why does George Jr declare rebuilding where no rebuilding should occur? That is classic mismanagement. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That is a mental midget president who would rebuild homes below sea level AND exposed to severe hurricane disaster. The mental midget president only demonstrates why we end up spending $billion later to fix problems that never should have existed.

So where did the mental midget go as a predicted New Orleans disaster happened? He did a campaign fund raiser in CA. Now that is total mismanagement. The levees were not mismanaged. But the president is a classic example of mismanagement. A CA fund raiser that weekend! I believe it was to Orange County. Never for one minute say good things about the mental midget president and then call yourself a patriotic American. A president is so anti-Amerian as to even lie about the levees. So naive as to instead go to CA on a fund raiser when Brownie was desperately calling for assistance from everyone. His pleas to George Jr are even on video tape.

That is where mismanagement was. So badly mismanged that George Jr tried to lie - decalare the levees would do what they were not constructed to do. The levees did as intended. To find mismanagement now ongoing, 85% of problems are directly traceable to this president. He would even rebuild the Ninth Ward because his own popularity is more important than America.

When leadership was most needed, George Jr went on a campaign fund raiser to CA. Show me how that is responsible management. When Brownie was begging for top management to cut through red tape - ie let the Bataan participate in the rescue - where was George Jr? New Orleans is but another trophy in George Jr's trophy case.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.

Can you prove that?

[Dagney]

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

Originally Posted by Dagney

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

Total Cost of the Interstate System ($Billions) in some recent years
as reported to congress (the Fed's share is the number in bold print)

1958 37.622 33.952
1961 41.000 37.000
1965 46.800 42.000
1968 56.500 50.640
1970 69.870 62.500
1972 76.300 68.260
1975 89.200 79.520
1977 104.300 93.240
1979 112.900 100.800
1981 133.932 119.685
1981 Rev 119.000 106.200
1983 123.300 109.900
1985 120.500 107.200
1987 121.000 107.600
1989 124.900 111.000
1991 128.900 114.300

The Revised 1981 Estimate reflects Interstate System completion as redefined by the 1981 Highway Act.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Dagney

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

The Feds have no highway department so they hire the states to do the actual work and pay them with the Federal Highway Trust Fund which is funded by fuel taxes they collect.
Federal Motor Fuel Excise Tax is 18.4 cents on gasoline, 13.6 cents on LPG, 24.4 cents on diesel fuel, 18.4 cents on gasohol, 19.4 cents on aviation gas, and 4.4 cents on jet fuel.

[Undertoad]

Despite comments from a mental midget president, everyone expected the levees to be breached - and they were. The mental midget was told that repeatedly.

It turns out he was told repeatedly that they might be topped. The original story, page 4:

"I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern," Mayfield told the briefing.

This was clarified by the AP:

Clarification: Katrina-Video story
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials.

The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking.

The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn't until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.

Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?

If we don't understand yet, let this blogger explain:

Personally, I expected topping of the levees, I expected water to run up I-10 into New Orleans East, I expected some of the inner city canal levees to be topped and some of the St. Bernard and Jefferson parish levees to be overtopped by the storm surge. I expected flooding, you always expect flooding in New Orleans during a hurricane, but then I expected the pumps to take over and pump the water out of the city. That was the defense plan for New Orleans. That's always been the plan. If water comes into the perimeter protected by levees, collect it in the canals and pump it out. A levee failure, like that experienced during Katrina, can't be "anticipated" because it's a catastrophic total failure of the levee. If you "anticipate" the breach of the levee, why even rely on the levee system at all, a breached levee might as well be no levee at all. For centuries New Orleans has relied on the levees to protect it, and for centuries, a levee breach was not "anticipated".

Levee "topping" however is a completely different story, and NO ONE has ever talked about not anticipating the levees being topped. In fact, almost everyone talked about them being topped.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?

No. Topping is not like the water that slops over the edge of a swimming pool, splash, splash, mop it up.
National Geographic and Smithsonian plus a show on Discovery or PBS (forget which), years ago, explained how a storm larger than cat 3 could raise the level of the lake 4 to six feet higher than the levees. In that scenario there aren't enough pumps in the country to keep New Orleans from flooding. Especially when you consider; A- most of the pumps don't have their own power supply and B- the pump crews were evacuated before the shit hit the fan.
Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it.

Everybody knew it. It is why Mayor Nagin got on the radio Saturday night with a personal appeal for everyone to leave New Orleans. A famous and retired judge in NO was not going to leave until he heard that Saturday night appeal. Katrina struck Monday morning which is why that Judge safely got out of town.

Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center was so concerned that he did something he never did. Not once ever in something like 20 years. Max personally called every major leader. He did this to make sure everyone knew that Katrina was the big one. Did he call the president? Never said. But the president and everyone in that video conference were told this was the worst case disaster of Hurricane Pam and all previous simulations. Hurricane Pam was the disaster that everyone knew to be the worst possible disaster. (Notice it was known to be so bad that I used the word 'the' multiple times.) So bad that Max Mayfield did something he never does. Personally call warnings to everyone. Katrina was that much a disaster. Only reason that top management could not know - by definition - that person would have to be anti-America.

From those video tapes, Brown also knew this AND was literally begging -all but got on his knees - begged everyone to even violate rules to get him assistance. IOW he knew from Hurricane Pam that he was in trouble and was telling that to a mental midget president.

George Jr - as any mental midget would do - sat there, listened, never asked a single question, and never gave any direction. Even the Three Stoogers would have been better leaders. But then the mental midget president is also an MBA. No way around the reality of that fact either.

Contrast this with a leader who - by definition - was patriotic. During the upper Mississippi floods that were easily of same scale, Clinton asked incisive questions AND provided direction. Clinton did what anyone with minimal intelligence would do. Therefore those Upper Mississippi floods were only another interesting news story. What the mental midget president did was condemn some people to death. George Jr literally meets the definition of anti-American as well as someone with an MBA background. In fact, using the definition of patriotic American, even bin Laden is a better patriotic American than George Jr. At least bin Laden grasps reality. No wonder George Jr did not try to get bin Laden. It required him to make a decision - to ask incisive questions - which George Jr never once did even the entire day of 11 September 2001.

Is above an insult? Insults do not come supported by five years of examples and blunt facts. In every disaster, George Jr did nothing while people were dying. Not just in New Orleans. During 911 and the Indian Ocean Tsunami are previous examples. Never forget where the USS Lincoln task group sat for five days doing nothing as George Jr fiddled. Never forget where the USS Bataan sat for five days as George Jr fiddled. Facts that Rush Limbaugh liars hope good American don’t learn.

Does George Jr know who Nero was? No, it was more important to go to CA on a campaign fund raiser. There is no way for a single decent American to deny these facts. None whatsoever. George Jr has only done again what everyone should expect from a mental midget - with a history of letting people die - and then casting blame elsewhere.

Anyone who disputes this better have hard ass facts - and video tape. Fans of George Jr - hearafter called fools - cannot dispute this without lying - without posting classic Rush Limbaugh half truths and propaganda. IOW fans of George Jr would have to be as anti-American as the mental midget to deny this post.