The Soul of Man Under Socialism - Page 2

Ibby · 03-05-2007, 07:43 PM

Because that's not the REAL situation that the entire concept deals with.

Two people starting equal are two people starting equal. That is not and will not ever be a problem in society. The problem comes that they DON'T start equally.

Did you even read the essay?

Aliantha · 03-05-2007, 08:05 PM

It is also a fact that some people come by their wealth or good fortune by working less hard than others. Just because you work your arse off doesn't mean you have the same opportunities or outcomes.

Perry Winkle · 03-05-2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I have wondered this many times. Are humans naturally greedy or greedy because we have been raised in a capitalistic society, which is greedy by nature?

People tend to take care of themselves and the people close to them first. If grabbing more than your fair share (greed) allows you to take care of things more comfortably, it's natural to do so.

Humans survive by nature, and amassing plenty tends to ensure survival (and cause heart-disease, et al).

Perry Winkle · 03-05-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

Two people starting equal are two people starting equal. That is not and will not ever be a problem in society. The problem comes that they DON'T start equally.

Some of the most successful people start at or near the bottom. Being disadvantaged either makes you give up or puts a fire in your belly.

I think the artificial equality of communism/anarchism/whatever breeds contempt and laziness.

Re: the A and B scenario...you don't kill off a group you depend on (or exploit), you give them just enough to keep the benefit (until a more beneficial choice comes along)

piercehawkeye45 · 03-05-2007, 08:29 PM

rkzenrage......what?

I think everyone should start out at the same point no matter where your parents stand. Kids in the inner city should have an equal chance as the kids in the suburbs. There are many problems with this, especially social pressures and we should be working on fixing these right now.

I am not a communist or a hardcore socialist but I do believe that no one should die in our country as long as they give an effort to contribute to society. This means that instead of just handing out welfare, we make them do community service. There are many solutions to our problem but people are just avoiding the issue because it will involve a lot of work.

I believe that it is a first world nation’s duty to make sure everyone within its borders is alive and have at least a decent chance to succeeding. Even though welfare and theft is a very good argument, people will have to sacrifice to live in the country like this.

WabUfvot5 · 03-05-2007, 09:00 PM

The world is not, nor ever will be, fair. With that in mind I tend to like the Scandinavian model of socialism. You can still use your natural talents to accrue wealth but _some_ of that wealth is distributed. To me it's no different than paying for public roads: it benefits the entire society.

03-05-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

It is also a fact that some people come by their wealth or good fortune by working less hard than others. Just because you work your arse off doesn't mean you have the same opportunities or outcomes.

Exactly, some people work smart... good for them, they deserve what they get, perhaps doubly so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

rkzenrage......what?

I think everyone should start out at the same point no matter where your parents stand. Kids in the inner city should have an equal chance as the kids in the suburbs. There are many problems with this, especially social pressures and we should be working on fixing these right now.

I am not a communist or a hardcore socialist but I do believe that no one should die in our country as long as they give an effort to contribute to society. This means that instead of just handing out welfare, we make them do community service. There are many solutions to our problem but people are just avoiding the issue because it will involve a lot of work.

I believe that it is a first world nation’s duty to make sure everyone within its borders is alive and have at least a decent chance to succeeding. Even though welfare and theft is a very good argument, people will have to sacrifice to live in the country like this.

So, if I invent something and people buy it or I just work very hard and I make a lot of money you feel that my children should not benefit from it?
I think that is nuts, natural selection works for a reason.

If we were naturally greedy there would not be so damn many of us LOOK people. We are the most benevolent animal there is.
However, handicapping the most successful of us harms the species, it is stupid to do so. They should be encouraged.
We are lucky Gates did not just pack his toys and go home when we spit in his face recently, many of us would have, he would have been justified in doing so. I would not have blamed him, I would have sold recent products to the US and nations that did not sue him and products five years behind them to all other nations as a result. That would have been fair.

Aliantha · 03-05-2007, 09:47 PM

rkz...my point wasn't necessarily the same as yours. You can be the best, hardest working ditch digger in the world, but chances are you'll be in that ditch for the rest of your life. It doesn't mean you work any less hard. Just that your chances in life are limited.

03-05-2007, 10:03 PM

I have been a ditch digger, a crap scooper, a bouncer, and other shitty jobs, dyslexic, with arthritis (and the others that I did not know about at the time)... chose to bust my ass and get a college degree by working my way through while the others stayed, chose.
Anyone can.

Aliantha · 03-05-2007, 10:08 PM

I don't agree with the word 'chose'. Not everyone gets the same choices because society doesn't support everyone equally.

Differen't people have different motivations. I doubt anyone else's would be the same as yours. Just as mine are not the same anyone elses, or anyone elses' the same as mine.

I don't buy into your argument, which is one demonstration as to why there will always be proponents for both sides, which is good because it means (hopefully) that democratic societies don't become wholly engulfed by one side or the other.

03-05-2007, 10:10 PM

So, you patronize when someone disagrees with you and you don't believe in free-will?
No point in discussing this with an automaton.

Aliantha · 03-05-2007, 10:17 PM

As you can see, I edited my response to your previous post immediately, but the outcome is the same. You 'choose' to look only at yourself and not society at large to prove your point. This leads to a very one sided hypothesis when discussing an issue which concerns people who aren't you.

03-05-2007, 10:22 PM

I was given no "up" or help. I worked for four years between my AA and BFA and worked all the way through both.
Society? The richest man in the US did not go to College and helped create his own market, the other did not finish high-school and was not rich to begin with. As a whole, our nation was built by self-starters and achievers who started from the middle or lower... I am not looking at myself only. Your ability to see into my head is astonishing.

Aliantha · 03-05-2007, 10:28 PM

the people you are noting are the exception, not the norm, therefore, they only account for a very small percentage of society at large and therefore do not provide relevant statistical data.

Consider the number of people born at or below the poverty line, and then consider the number of people who have become independantly wealthy from those origins. If this is an 'average' outcome, then I will accept your argument. If it's not, then your argument has no foundation.

03-05-2007, 10:31 PM

So, you feel that if you are born poor you cannot better yourself? Free-will does not enter into it?
I'm just an anomaly?

03-05-2007, 07:43 PM	#16
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Because that's not the REAL situation that the entire concept deals with. Two people starting equal are two people starting equal. That is not and will not ever be a problem in society. The problem comes that they DON'T start equally. Did you even read the essay? __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

03-05-2007, 08:05 PM	#17
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	It is also a fact that some people come by their wealth or good fortune by working less hard than others. Just because you work your arse off doesn't mean you have the same opportunities or outcomes. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

03-05-2007, 09:47 PM	#23
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	rkz...my point wasn't necessarily the same as yours. You can be the best, hardest working ditch digger in the world, but chances are you'll be in that ditch for the rest of your life. It doesn't mean you work any less hard. Just that your chances in life are limited. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

03-05-2007, 10:08 PM	#25
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	I don't agree with the word 'chose'. Not everyone gets the same choices because society doesn't support everyone equally. Differen't people have different motivations. I doubt anyone else's would be the same as yours. Just as mine are not the same anyone elses, or anyone elses' the same as mine. I don't buy into your argument, which is one demonstration as to why there will always be proponents for both sides, which is good because it means (hopefully) that democratic societies don't become wholly engulfed by one side or the other. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

03-05-2007, 10:17 PM	#27
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	As you can see, I edited my response to your previous post immediately, but the outcome is the same. You 'choose' to look only at yourself and not society at large to prove your point. This leads to a very one sided hypothesis when discussing an issue which concerns people who aren't you. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

03-05-2007, 08:29 PM	#20
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	rkzenrage......what? I think everyone should start out at the same point no matter where your parents stand. Kids in the inner city should have an equal chance as the kids in the suburbs. There are many problems with this, especially social pressures and we should be working on fixing these right now. I am not a communist or a hardcore socialist but I do believe that no one should die in our country as long as they give an effort to contribute to society. This means that instead of just handing out welfare, we make them do community service. There are many solutions to our problem but people are just avoiding the issue because it will involve a lot of work. I believe that it is a first world nation’s duty to make sure everyone within its borders is alive and have at least a decent chance to succeeding. Even though welfare and theft is a very good argument, people will have to sacrifice to live in the country like this.

03-05-2007, 09:00 PM	#21
WabUfvot5 Operations Operative Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 634	The world is not, nor ever will be, fair. With that in mind I tend to like the Scandinavian model of socialism. You can still use your natural talents to accrue wealth but _some_ of that wealth is distributed. To me it's no different than paying for public roads: it benefits the entire society.

03-05-2007, 10:03 PM	#24
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I have been a ditch digger, a crap scooper, a bouncer, and other shitty jobs, dyslexic, with arthritis (and the others that I did not know about at the time)... chose to bust my ass and get a college degree by working my way through while the others stayed, chose. Anyone can.

03-05-2007, 10:10 PM	#26
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	So, you patronize when someone disagrees with you and you don't believe in free-will? No point in discussing this with an automaton.

03-05-2007, 10:22 PM	#28
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I was given no "up" or help. I worked for four years between my AA and BFA and worked all the way through both. Society? The richest man in the US did not go to College and helped create his own market, the other did not finish high-school and was not rich to begin with. As a whole, our nation was built by self-starters and achievers who started from the middle or lower... I am not looking at myself only. Your ability to see into my head is astonishing.

03-05-2007, 10:28 PM	#29
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	the people you are noting are the exception, not the norm, therefore, they only account for a very small percentage of society at large and therefore do not provide relevant statistical data. Consider the number of people born at or below the poverty line, and then consider the number of people who have become independantly wealthy from those origins. If this is an 'average' outcome, then I will accept your argument. If it's not, then your argument has no foundation. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

03-05-2007, 10:31 PM	#30
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	So, you feel that if you are born poor you cannot better yourself? Free-will does not enter into it? I'm just an anomaly?

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