Political leanings of network anchors

[wolf]

You're just ticked off because he's not letting you use your regular parking space.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's fast for the feds.

And if you're calling ME, a "Bush apologist", I'll kick your ass.

Actually, Bruce, I pretty much agree with you. I think he was wrong to just sit there, but I don't think it's a big deal. So the guy freezes in an emergency for ~10 minutes. The reality is that we aren't that likely to have a similar emergency out of the blue in the future. And there has presumably been a lot of planning going on since then, so reactions (even his) will hopefully be better next time.

But my position is different on this one issue than lookout's, for example, who says he did the right thing by doing nothing. UT also defends him, but is wrong in implying that Bush only knew about the first plane as he sat there. Bush knew about both planes at that point.

Is it a big deal? I don't really think so, but it certainly was not right. We were in the midst of an attack, and he just sat there. He had bad instincts. I can't believe anyone would try to spin it another way.

[Undertoad]

When people call me a Bush apologist it helps me to understand their point of view. I won't say what I think of the label because that way I retain this advantage. :P

Even if the entire attack was on at that point, it's stupid, self-indulgent and non-helpful second-guessing today almost three years later. Of course there were any number of worse reactions Bush could have had. He could have lept and ran out of the room without making any statements. This would have had the effect of putting the entire country into a deeper panic. Maybe the very very best reaction would be to quietly excuse himself to attend to the business of the country. But it was not up to him what the next immediate move was anyway, and the very big-picture seriousness was only wholly understood to us for months afterward.

The fact that the country was not really interested in his immediate reaction AT THE TIME tells you what you need to know about it.

It's stupid self-indulgence to only talk about seven minutes following the attack and to avoid the following seven days and seven months, in which the Pres acted in ways that 90% of the public reacted with a deep "hell yeah" no matter which political party they were in. To me, his action during THAT period was exactly right, and so it was to the rest of us too... resulting in stratospheric popularity numbers.

And self-indulgent, too, to look at only that period and not the period that followed, in which the resolve of the people fell and those popularity numbers slowly dribbled down to where they are now.

But of all the periods to look at and judge, those seven minutes are the stupidest.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But of all the periods to look at and judge, those seven minutes are the stupidest.

Fair enough. The topic was already being discussed, so I threw my two cents in. It's not high on my list of priorities either.

I don't often praise Bush, but I will say that much of what he did and said in the months after 9/11 was just what we needed, and attacking the Taliban in Afghanistan was the right thing to do. Too bad we've put it on the back burner.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Nothing ticks me off more than this kind of Monday morning quarterbacking. When the first plane hit the tower NOBODY had any concept, save a few really panicked air traffic controllers, that it was an attack on the USA.

The seven minutes was after the second plane. The message whispered in his ear was "a plane has hit the second tower. America is under attack."

If the Pres is supposed to get up and panic at every single bad event that occurs he is going to be very tired by the end of the week and no children are going to be read to.

This is what I hate about this debate. I wouldn't bother talking about the seven minutes if this didn't keep getting brought up: "get up and panic at every single bad event". His options weren't "sit and ponder" vs "get up and panic". Nobody is saying he should have panicked. Nobody wishes he had jumped up and run out of the room, leaving panicked, crying kids in his wake. He could have gotten up, thanked them for hosting him, and told them he had president business to attend to. I'm not saying that, in retrospect, he could have done anything (But he didn't know that). My main point is that getting briefed immediately would not have necessarily entailed panicing the kids or himself.

[warch]

Maybe the very very best reaction would be to quietly excuse himself to attend to the business of the country. But it was not up to him what the next immediate move was anyway, and the very big-picture seriousness was only wholly understood to us for months afterward.

He's the freakin commander in chief! His primary job is the security of the country. It takes precedent over a photo op. To go and do his job would not have caused panic. We were watching planes topple building and people throwing themselves out of windows, for godsake. He's told the country is under attack and his reaction speaks volumes towards his leadership or lack thereof. I disagree that the seriousness wasnt understood till months later. At 9:45 that morning we, who were watching it live, knew some serious shit was going down. We imagined more might be on the way. I was praying those who could know, would do their jobs. I assumed the President got right on it. The emergency response was tremendous, but the air guard response was not quite on guard. We learn after the 911 commission report that Bush didnt move to seek out more information for himself in those first crucial minutes- (7 sitting, 20 figuring out to scramble to Nebraska). Cheney was/is in charge.

Is it stupid to look back at Bush's performance? No. Its a rarity to get a candid, non scripted view. Why didnt we hear more about this pause in leadership AT THE TIME? I heard nothing of it in the news. Probably because the last thing we, as a country under attack wanted to project was any WEAKNESS. It wasnt until the 911 commission's interview of Bush/Cheney and Moore's film that Bush's inaction was presented. Once again, hes the commander in chief and he displayed WEAKNESS.

Bush's popularity soared afterwards, as did America's. We were wronged! We were rallied around. Bush consoled us, he rode the wave. The fact that Bush squandered that goodwill also displays not his leadership strenghth, but his weakness.

And self-indulgent, too, to look at only that period and not the period that followed, in which the resolve of the people fell and those popularity numbers slowly dribbled down to where they are now.

So the trouble today is we the people just lost our "resolve". Bullshit. What we got was more information. What we got was some truth about the leadership's bad decisions. What we got was a civil war in Iraq. What happened is that Bush proved to be a poor leader. I think it is self-indulgent to blame Bush's loss of popularity on a public that just isnt resolved enough. Bush is going to have to start owning some of this fuckups. And they start in a classroom on Sept 11, 2001. I think its evidence worth knowing about.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

My main point is that getting briefed immediately would not have necessarily entailed panicing the kids or himself.

wouldn't it make more sense for the people who brief the president to get briefed. it isn't like there was a telex that just starts spitting out info explaining the details of an event for someone to read to the president.
someone has to pull together the known facts, assemble them in a logical way and then report it to the individuals who brief the president. at that point in time the president and his advisors would probably sit down for an effective briefing.

the alternative is that the moment the plane hit the 2nd tower his aides could have pulled him out and sat him down while he watched them talk on the phone to those with the info. he could then have watched them hang up the phones, discuss the issue among themselves, only hearing snippets of the conversation - and possibly forming an inaccurate or tainted view of the situation based on small tidbits of info.

this briefing prep shouldn't take hours, but 7 minutes seems pretty reasonable.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

Is it a big deal? I don't really think so, but it certainly was not right. We were in the midst of an attack, and he just sat there. He had bad instincts. I can't believe anyone would try to spin it another way.

His indecisions and inaction were a major deal. George Jr sat there fully knowing America was under attack while never even once asked a single question. Those seven minutes are symonomous to the entire George Jr administration response during the 11 September attack AND later decisions that let Ossam bin Laden go free.

I note in another post that as I read more, I become more appalled at who really is in command. I no longer believe George Jr makes any decisions until told to do so by his political advisors including Rice, Rove, and Cheney. Even Card appears to be more of a care taker. Details of indecision and resulting actions will be provided. Details demonstrate absolute and total mismangement by the mental midget president as he waits for his advisors to tell him what to do.

Furthermore UT's idea that air traffic controller were in panic mode is a complete lie. So much a lie that UT must have made his conclusions using a political agenda. Demonstrated is that the little people - including ATC personel - were the only persons doing things right. The only person paniced were a US president frozen in a classroom when the little people needed command decisions to be made. So indecisive that George Jr could not even ask one question such as, "Is anyone in charge?" Yes I am blunt because UT belligerently misrepresents 11 September and the superb response by so many little people when confronted by total indeicsion by the George Jr administration. Numerous details and examples follow:

From the 9/11 Commission Report:

The President was seated in a classroom when, at 9:05, Andrew Card whispered to him: "A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack." The President told us his instinct was to project calm, not to have the country see an excited reaction at a moment of crisis.

Let's see. On 6 Aug, his PDB said an immenent attack would involve planes and buildings. The people desperate for leadership needed someone who knew this fact to make decisions. But George Jr just sat there. Before he got off Air Force One, he already knew one plane had hit the WTC. He was told by Andy Card - specifically - the second plane was an attack on the US. He sat there for seven minutes and did not even ask one question! This is leadership? No this is a president waiting for his people to tell him what to do. UT would have you believe otherwise. Unlike UT, I have spent substancial time reading the details. The more details I read, then the more indecision existed in the White House. Indecision as to even what questions to ask.

If the president got up from his chair and immediately consulted with his advisors, would people then go running in panic down the street. Of course not. In fact, if the president immediately left the room, well, no one would have cared especially since everyone knew the WTC was hit. Leaving the classroom immediately would have been the logical and responsbile actions of a decisive leader. But he did not act decisive. He just sat there and never once asked a single question. What was he waiting for - god to tell him what to do? Others are so foolish as to call that "not causing panic". Yes I am openly challenging the credibility of anyone who believes if the president left that classroom, then Americans would be rioting in panic. How silly as to buy into that presidental propaganda spin. And yet so many so love the mental midget as to buy that lie. A decisive president leaving the classroom would have projected the calming effect of a leader in charge. But he was not in charge. He just sat there as the government suffered from indecision - as will be exampled.

Government operating without direction as the president just sat there reading a childrens book. Even fighter protection for NYC and Washington was never authorized to shoot down any plane to protect the city. At 10:07, even after the Pentagon was attacked and the number of other highjacked planes was unknown:

At that point in time, the Langley pilots did not know the threat they were facing, did not know where United 93 was located, and did not have shootdown authorization. ... At 10:10, the pilots over Washington were emphatically told, "negative clearance to shoot."

The president knew where the threat was coming from. It was stated in his 6 August 2001 PDB and in other PDBs. But without his direction and without the CIA intelligence from that PDB, then government was lost as to how to respond. Fighters even went out to sea in response to some kind of naval attack. They had no facts or leadership and therefore went the wrong direction. American 77 had already crashed into the Pentagon at 9:38. United 93 was still somewhere out there, undetected, missing, and still no one in the White House authorized fighter pilots to defend Washington or New York. More indecision as George Jr asked no questions and provided no leadership.

So what does George Jr do? Card tells him America is under attack. Does he ask Card a simple question such as who is in charge? Does he ask for further information? Does he even ask how many more attacks are coming? No, he sits there waiting for Cheney, et al to make a decision. Even Rumsfeld was not available to issue orders. Rumsfeld was lost outside in the parking lot, moving stretchers when command decisions by him and the President were required.

While the president sat there dumbly reading children's books, the US response to ongoing attacks was paralyzed - except where people not in command took charge without leadership orders. Example:

In addition to notifications within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. The center also tried to contact a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware it had been phased out. At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military "at any level" that American 11 had been hijacked

The military responded because air traffic controllers in Boston Center did not wait for the George Jr administration to respond and were not paniced as UT would have us believe. FAA Administrators were notified but also did not ask for military assistance. In fact top Geroge Jr administrators repeatedly did not respond - as George Jr sat in that elementary school knowing that America was under attack.

George Jr would not understand that the FAA leaadership was doing nothing. He did not ask a single question - such as, "Is anyone in command?"

UT has totally misrepresented the US response to those 9/11 attacks. Apparently he likes George Jr more than he does the American people. The entire US response to the 9/11 attacks were by the little people who had no authority to do what they did. The closer one gets to Washington, then indecision was greatest - as George Jr sat in the FL classroom doing nothing.

Field commanders responded without orders:

At NEADS, the report of the hijacking was relayed immediately to Battle Commander Colonel Robert Marr. After ordering the Otis fighters to battle stations, Colonel Marr phoned Major General Larry Arnold, commanding general of the First Air Force and NORAD's Continental Region. Marr sought authorization to scramble the Otis fighters. General Arnold later recalled instructing Marr to "go ahead and scramble them, and we'll get authorities later.

[continued in the next post]

[warch]

Command during crisis starts immediately. Cheney, not Bush, was put in the immediate command role to make the call whether or not planes should be shot down. Cheney was the commander in chief. Cheney was in charge. That's not how its billed though.

[Happy Monkey]

That may be true. I am primarily objecting to the false dichotomy between doing nothing and panicking.

For reference: a timeline

8:46am - First plane hit. Bush is told before 8:55
9:03am - second plane hit.
9:06am - Bush told
9:38am - Pentagon hit
10:03am - Pennsylvania plane crash

[tw]

[continued from the previous post]

Indecision and inaction is exactly what the mental midget president did. He was told that America was under attack - told so specifically. And yet he just sat there for seven minutes without asking even one question! Any action to stop the highjacking - well the farther we go outside Washington, then the better the response. "Frozen in fear" seems greatest the closer we get to the president - who sat there frozen in a FL school for seven minutes.

Boston Center had quickly determined the situation and was desperately trying to get the George Jr administration to respond. They told their FAA bosses to notify all aircraft to fortify the cockpits. They suspected that Delta 1989 would also be hijacked. FAA responded just like George Jr in that classroom. Top administrators asked no questions. They did nothing.

Within minutes of the second impact, Boston Center instructed its controllers to inform all aircraft in its airspace of the events in New York and to advise aircraft to heighten cockpit security. Boston Center asked the Herndon Command Center to issue a similar cockpit security alert nationwide. We have found no evidence to suggest that the Command Center acted on this request or issued any type of cockpit security alert.

In fact, United 93 got orders to heighten security only through their own airline flight dispatcher:

United's first decisive action to notify its airborne aircraft to take defensive action did not come until 9:19, when a United flight dispatcher, Ed Ballinger, took the initiative to begin transmitting warnings to his 16 transcontinental flights: "Beware any cockpit intrusion. Two a/c [aircraft] hit World Trade Center." One of the flights that received the warning was United 93. Because Ballinger was still responsible for his other flights as well as Flight 175, his warning message was not transmitted to Flight 93 until 9:23.69 ... At 9:24, Ballinger's warning to United 93 was received in the cockpit. Within two minutes, at 9:26, the pilot, Jason Dahl, responded with a note of puzzlement: "Ed, confirm latest mssg plz -Jason." The hijackers attacked at 9:28.

Ballinger, another little person without authority, did not panic. He made simple decisions that were decisive and responsible while at the same time a president had just decided to leave the classroom.

Other ATC centers such as NY, Cleveland, and Indianapolis also assessed their situation and properly responded without panic. As it flew over Toledo, Cleveland center feared that Delta 1989 was also a highjacking. Fighter jets from Michigan and Ohio followed Delta 1989 into Cleveland International - confused as to why Delta 1989 had reversed course. But then little people had properly assessed the situation, had responded accordingly, and could not get any help from the George Jr administration.

Boston Center immediately advised the New England Region that it was going to stop all departures at airports under its control. At 9:05, Boston Center confirmed for both the FAA Command Center and the New England Region that the hijackers aboard American 11 said "we have planes." At the same time, New York Center declared "ATC zero" - meaning that aircraft were not permitted to depart from, arrive at, or travel through New York Center's airspace until further notice.

Meanwhile Cleveland Center was desperately trying to get FAA administrators to provide military help. Even at 9:50, we have this request from the field that is ignored by FAA HQ:

FAA Headquarters: They're pulling Jeff away to go talk about United 93.
Command Center: Uh, do we want to think, uh, about scrambling aircraft?
FAA Headquarters: Oh, God, I don't know.
Command Center: Uh, that's a decision somebody's gonna have make probably in the next ten minutes.
FAA Headquarters: Uh, ya know everybody just left the room.

Jeff would be Jeff Griffith, Deputy Director for FAA ATC who is being called by Jane Garvey into the telephone conference where no decisions will be made.

The FAA later grounded all aircraft. Who did it? Not any administrators - no matter how they tried to lie around that fact.

By 9:25, ...A manager at the Herndon Command Center asked FAA headquarters if they wanted to order a "nationwide ground stop." While this was being discussed by executives at FAA headquarters, the Command Center ordered one ...

The operation manager of FAA control center, Ben Sliney, his first day on this job, and at repeated strong demands from his new employees, unilaterally orders a nationwide shutdown at 9:42 without authorization and without knowing if he can even do it. FAA administrator Jane Garvey and the White House would later say she was requesting permission from the White House. That claim and the White House supporting response are both lies. Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta would claim he ordered it. But facts suggest Mineta only learned about the nationwide shutdown 15 minutes later from the press. Sliney took charge, as so many little people did that day, on his own with no response from the George Jr administration:

At 9:42, the Command Center learned from news reports that a plane had struck the Pentagon. The Command Center's national operations manager, Ben Sliney, ordered all FAA facilities to instruct all aircraft to land at the nearest airport.

In response to the first attacks, fighters from Langley AFB are launched at 9:30. But without information from the leadership, instead, those fighters head out 60 miles to sea where they will still be when the Pentagon is hit. However a general at Andrews AFB takes it upon himself to respond with three F-16s from the DC National Guard.

General David Wherley - the commander of the 113th Wing - reached out to the Secret Service after hearing secondhand reports that it wanted fighters airborne. A Secret Service agent had a phone in each ear, one connected to Wherley and the other to a fellow agent at the White House, ... The guidance for Wherley was to send up the aircraft, with orders to protect the White House and take out any aircraft that threatened the Capitol. General Wherley translated this in military terms to flying "weapons free" - that is, the decision to shoot rests in the cockpit, or in this case in the cockpit of the lead pilot. He passed these instructions to the pilots that launched at 10:42 and afterward.
Thus, while the fighter pilots under NORAD direction who had scrambled out of Langley never received any type of engagement order, the Andrews pilots were operating weapons free - permissive rule of engagement. The President and the Vice President indicated to us they had not been aware that fighters had been scrambled out of Andrews, at the request of the Secret Service and outside the military chain of command. There is no evidence that NORAD headquarters or military officials in the NMCC knew- during the morning of September 11 - that the Andrews planes were airborne and operating under different rules of engagement.

With no direction from George Jr or his administration, many individuals in government took initative (without permission) to institute actions to thwart the 11 September attacks. Repeatedly missing in every report is any decisive action by any George Jr administration officials. While George Jr sat in that elementary school reading a child's book and asking no questions, the US Government was desperate for leadership from George Jr and his people. They needed to know the information in that 6 August PDB. George Jr provided no commands, issued no decisions, asked no questions, and took his orders from Cheney who told him not to come back to Washington. How dare anyone suggest the little people were paniced. That is an outright lie. The little people are the only ones who did anything right on 11 September while George Jr sat reading a child's book - knowing full well that America was under attack AND that this was predicted by his 6 August 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing.

[tw]

Originally Posted by warch

Command during crisis starts immediately. Cheney, not Bush, was put in the immediate command role to make the call whether or not planes should be shot down. Cheney was the commander in chief. Cheney was in charge. That's not how its billed though.

Reality is that fighter planes were never authorized to shoot down attacking airliners - at least not by Cheney. But then it gets worse. George Jr even complains how difficult it was for him to contact Cheney. Richard Clarke tells the story. It turns out that the open speaker phone used during this crisis was too loud for Mrs Cheney (what is she even doing there?) So she repeatedly goes over to that speaker phone and hangs it up - so that she can hear the sound from CNN.

[tw]

Originally Posted by lookout123

the alternative is that the moment the plane hit the 2nd tower his aides could have pulled him out and sat him down while he watched them talk on the phone to those with the info. he could then have watched them hang up the phones, discuss the issue among themselves, only hearing snippets of the conversation - and possibly forming an inaccurate or tainted view of the situation based on small tidbits of info.

Its called a game of telephone. How many people completely distort the message. Five? A responsible president, while the nation was watching the WTC attacks unfold on live TV, would have gotten up, taken the phone himself, and immediately called the White House situation room. Instead this president waits for the game of telephone to provide him with a distorted summary? As if that president is waiting for his political advisors to tell him what to do. Waiting for Cheney, Rove, and Rice to make decisions.

After reading so many insider stories, I now suspect this president does not make the decisions. He sits there waiting for someone to tell him what to do. The fact that he asks no questions only demonstrates what so many others have said about meetings with this president. He just sits there. He asks nothing as if he already knows all the answers. This was disturbing even to his Secretary of the Treasurey Paul O'Neill. This president has found a way to mask his ignorance. He asks no questions.

[warch]

Interesting timeline link Mr. Monkey. Thanks.

[Troubleshooter]

Regardless of which way these guys lean they say only what they are told to say. The ones who make the big time are the ones who do it with the least prompting.

Even the ones that seem to lean conservatively spend most of their time accosting the liberals, not telling tales on the people who own them.

Don't forget that all, all of the channels are owned by conservative corporations whose job is to make the most money, not necessarily to tell the truth.