frightening flight experience

[Clodfobble]

Remember the British citizen that placed a bomb in his shoe and intended to blow up the plane? He wasn't checked, nor would he have been had we been checking all men from the Middle East aged 20-40.

If I recall, he definitely LOOKED Middle-Eastern. That's all that counts, he would have been searched if a widespread "search all men of Middle-Eastern descent" order were in place.

[jaguar]

The problem is the answer is better communication between baggage screeners and law enforcement combined with some cluey guys on screening so they know what to look for today and whether someone looks suspicious or not. It is no stretch to envisage Middle Eastern, Asian African or on the odd occasion, caucasian Islamic terrorists (let's face it, noone is going to be doing a good old hostage these days, that game is over), good intel and passing it around is paramount. That said, the most likely bombers today are 20-40 men of middle eastern decent, not skewing the random searches in their direction is paramount to dereliction of duty, I said it in the other thread.

That said, I fly all the time and I know full well that airport and plane security are a goddamn joke. It is so damn easy to carry on or manufacture weaponry it's not funny, I could list 20 ways off the top of my head.

[Carbonated_Brains]

And I can give you 400,000 other instances of a location and method that somebody of any ethnicity could kill you if they were so inclined.

How many drinking reservoirs do we have open to the air? How many stadiums feature 60,000 people packed into a tight area?

I find it laughable that people think once they figure out the whole airport safety thing, they're safe from terrorism.

It's like adaptability goes right out the window. We get a plane-based terror attack and BAM, all future ones must have something to do with planes. How blind is that?

Spend a day with a notebook downtown just walking around, and note potential dangers on-par with a plane hijacking. You'll find dozens. Every day.

The world is a scary place....if you want it to be.

I choose not to live in fear. I don't hate arabs or islam, because I know that the troublemakers are an EXCEPTION to the rule. I know that the probability of being involved in a plane hijacking is about the same as me being in an Oklahoma government building when that WHITE guy blew it up.

Maybe you blokes should investigate why extremists want to kill us in the first place. Because trust me, it isn't because "they hate our freedom."

[wolf]

Originally Posted by jaguar

That said, I fly all the time and I know full well that airport and plane security are a goddamn joke. It is so damn easy to carry on or manufacture weaponry it's not funny, I could list 20 ways off the top of my head.

I've not flown in a long time, but I'm certainly in agreement with you there. I have a couple doodads that would likely get confiscated off my keychain, but have fun collecting things that will make it through my metal detector at work and are still signficantly dangerous.

Like this.

And this.

[jaguar]

CF blades are one thing but when you get creative the opportunites are endless. Matches are easy enough to conceal, buy two large bottles of wiskey, pour both over a row of seats during a long haul flight at night and before anyone's noticed you've got a major fire on your hands.

carbonated_brains, I agree entirely

[DanaC]

Maybe you blokes should investigate why extremists want to kill us in the first place. Because trust me, it isn't because "they hate our freedom."

Oh man I hate that arroganct line. The idea that a whole bunch of people would hate America for it's freedom. Why would they hate freedom? What the fuck is there to hate about freedom? All the reasons that do exist and are relevant stack up to a bloody great mountain of grievances .....but no, the reason Bush and his cadre choose is that they hate freedom. Pathetic. It's like reading a superhero comic book. I am surprised the villains arent bright green and armed with killer frogs.

[Kitsune]

If I recall, he definitely LOOKED Middle-Eastern. That's all that counts, he would have been searched if a widespread "search all men of Middle-Eastern descent" order were in place.

This is silly. "Pardon me sir, you have dark skin and that means you have been flagged for security purposes. All the people with pale skin may go ahead and board."

I'm not pulling the "politically correct card" here, because about everytime I go into an airport, I'm the one that gets pulled aside and I don't consider it an inconvience. Its either because I have an overstuffed, suspicious bookbag as a carryon or, I dunno, maybe I just look like a terrorist. (I think the military hat and scruffy face might have something to do with it. Hmm.) Regardless, it doesn't bother me that I'm selected nearly every time and they decide to pick through my bags or sweep over me with a metal detector. If I am being selected at the X-ray line based on my looks, I don't care.

What I am saying here is that I'd like for you to go to any major airport and count how many people "look Middle Eastern" to you and tally the number that you think should be checked and I'm sure you will find that it is no small number. I admit that the most recent time I flew I glanced around at all the people who "fit the profile". The number was huge, mostly because its almost impossible to tell the difference between an Arab, an Indian, and someone from a lot of the Eastern countries. The simple matter is that there is not enough security to screen them all and, by concentrating our efforts on people "who look the part", we open the doors through security for hundreds of other methods to sneak something on board by simply changing that single aspect.

If you fly a lot, you know they already profile people, but more on suspicious patterns rather than skin color. Visiting with a passport? You're going to get checked. Switch carriers midway through your trip? You're probably going to get checked. One-way ticket? Expect to get lots of little 'X's on your boarding pass. Person under 18 who doesn't have to show proof of ID? They almost always get checked if they're over the age of 12. Even the technical field workers at my office that make regular trips to and from DC on a schedule get checked everytime they fly. Frustrated, they asked why and the response they got was that because they fly as a group on a regular basis, they're acting in a suspicious way and the system flags them for security reasons.

Is this perfect? Hell no. But I think its better than what we had before, which was essentially nothing, and I think its better than keeping the security screeners busy with the huge group of people that happen to have darker skin than an albino Finn in the wintertime. The random selection is there to both break the expected pattern and prevent human error -- there is a reason the computer makes half of the decisions.

Want all Arab-looking people checked? There is a really easy way to solve this, I suppose, but no one is willing to do it: pay more for your airline ticket and wait in longer lines. Just the same way with the bomb-proof luggage containers for checked-in bags -- they've had them for years, but insurance companies did the math and figured that losing one or two planes every so many years to an onboard bomb outweighs the cost of installing the reinforced bins. Higher cost for safer flight makes customers, and the airlines, unhappy and drives down business. Its the same reason you haven't seen any of the Boeings get their wires re-done or routed outside of the center gas tanks post flight 800 -- the risk outweighs the cost. No one is willing to pay for extra security or longer lines, but anyone will dish out some extra cash to sit in a seat with a little LCD TV installed in the back of the seat in front of them. Checking everyone is impossible. Checking all people who "look Arab" is impossible and creates a very easily broken security pattern. Random, for now, is as good as it gets.

I'm not sure I get the whole "political correctness is the problem" thing, anyways. Any captain of any commercial airline has the ability to remove any passenger for any reason, stated or not. In the days after September 11th, a number of pilots requested people who "appeared suspicious" to remove themselves from the flight prior to departure. I don't remember anyone screaming back then. In the X-Ray lines, people that are checked are selected on their appearance and/or their baggage. The only random part is the check prior to boarding based on your seating pass.

but have fun collecting things that will make it through my metal detector at work and are still signficantly dangerous.

Whoa, those are freaky. I thought they passed some kind of law that required some bits of metal be included in the blades in order to set off metal detectors?

[wolf]

Nope.

[Happy Monkey]

I've been profiled. I have long hair, and I don't shave when on vacation.

First I was profiled by every weed provider in Jamaica, offering.
Then I was profiled by every security person in the US, assuming I'd accepted.

It was sort of weirdly amusing.

[Kitsune]

Nice.

Of course, someone noted before -- all you have to do is take a knife from one of the restuarants in the airside that exists beyond the metal detectors. Ugh.

[Clodfobble]

In the days after September 11th, a number of pilots requested people who "appeared suspicious" to remove themselves from the flight prior to departure.

As a side note, comedian Dave Attell (host of Comedy Central's "Insomniac") was one of those people.

[Kitsune]

As a side note, comedian Dave Attell (host of Comedy Central's "Insomniac") was one of those people.

What? But Dave would never hurt anyone! That man is my all-time hero! Poor, poor Dave.

Ah, he probably drank his way back across the country and had a good time at it.

"Ahhhhhh... drunks and losers, dwarves with limps..."

[Clodfobble]

"_____s and ho's and one-eyed pimps!"

Anyone who can fill in that word for me will be my hero, I can never understand it clearly.

[Happy Monkey]

Freaks?

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Ignoring the most likely perpetrator of a hijacking and/or terrorist act because it might be deemed politically incorrect = Really ------- Stupid and We Deserve to Die

And how do you identify that likely perpetrator? The guy from Saudi Arabia here in the US on a visitor's passport? What about the guy from the Phillipenes here on a work visa? How about the man from Syria with a fake driver's license that has been marked as a US citizen in the flight ticketing system? Remember the British citizen that placed a bomb in his shoe and intended to blow up the plane? He wasn't checked, nor would he have been had we been checking all men from the Middle East aged 20-40.

We have limited TSA security resources. I understand the problem of ignoring the obvious, but concentrating on one group of people simply opens holes everywhere else. How about we make it difficult for anyone to bring a weapon on board?

I'm not suggesting we ignore everyone else, I'm suggesting we don't *intentionally* exclude the most likely type of potential perp because we're afraid we'll hurt someone's feelings. Big difference.