The fate of the Republican party? - Page 2

xoxoxoBruce · 10-21-2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

.....death of the Republican party.

Bwahahahahahahahaha! Get outta here, are you serious? If Nixon couldn't kill it nothing can. The worst Bush can do is cost them the next election, two tops. The fly in your ointment is you think Joe Voter gives a shit.

Joe Voter will bitch and grumble about the crooked pols, the price of gas, and the Yankees blowing a 3 game lead. But he also knows he can't do a damn thing about any of it. Damn Reagan, we don't have the commies toblame anymore.

10-21-2004, 08:33 PM

Excellent point, Bruce! Any entity which can survive Tricky Dick is definately bomb proof!

iamthewalrus109 · 10-22-2004, 10:14 AM

In regards to the Republican party surviving Dick Nixon, well as I said in a earlier post to this thread, Nixon was more of his own man, therefore leaving a large component of the party that could still govern legitmately. Furthermore, the Republicans, once the conversation of June 23rd, 1972 became public, closed ranks (Goldwater meeting w/Nixon 8/1974) to deal with his abuses. In the current instance I see, with the execption of a few I have named, complete, blind, and unquestioning alegiance. I feel it is more dispersed this time.

Nixon was true arbitor over everthing, hence why he couldn't just get rid of Haldeman and Erlichman and be safe. Accoringly, the downfall of Nixon was at a different time, different cirumstances. The downfall of Nixon had as much to do with him as it did with the fall of the imperial presidency. I think the current situation in the Republican party has the potential to have more of an effect on the party. It's the truth and there's no escaping it. A good proof of this theory is Reagan. He was a contender at the Republcan convention in 1968, his ascendency was just a page from what was left in leadership after Nixon's humiliating resignation in '74. In essence Nixon's resignation is the beginning of the end really. That's when the real whackos took over the party anyway. Hard line conservatives and the Reagan/Bushies took over the party leading to the current form of it, including these Wilsonian neo-con psychos.

Look, it all comes down to this: no matter what, there will be major changes in the Repulican party after the next four years. It may not be the technical death of the party, but definately something different. To be honest from a certain perspective the Republican party died on 8/9/1974. Now there are many dissaffected Republicans that are not just dissastified with a candidate, ie Bush, but have a deeper doubt about the direction of the party leadership as a whole. As oppossed to 1974, where the GOP was able to seal off the fire, due to the way Nixon ran things, which usually was on his own. As Reagan said, he saw Nixon as and oppourtunist, someone who used the Repulican party to further his (Nixon's) geopolitical theories. Reagan, Bush, Bush the lesser all engender a deeper representation of the party, they are the party, they are the GOP and they used the entirety of it in their pursuits.

-Walrus

Undertoad · 10-22-2004, 11:08 AM

Both parties change all the time. Over the last four years, for example, the D party has swayed towards states' rights, foreign isolationism, fiscal responsibility.

SteveDallas · 10-22-2004, 11:41 AM

walrus, why are you reading the election as a Bush win? From where I sit it looks way too close to call in favor of either side.

Kitsune · 10-22-2004, 11:46 AM

Both parties change all the time. Over the last four years, for example, the D party has swayed towards states' rights, foreign isolationism, fiscal responsibility.

UT's right. Ever look at what the Republican party represented 40 years ago? Very, very different than today!

iamthewalrus109 · 10-22-2004, 12:37 PM

In response to issues of political change and GW Bush winning the election of 2004, well what can I say, I see GW winning and I find that just to acknowledge change as a natural process is not enough.

Of course change is ineveitable, especially in politics, but the reason I started this thread was to aknowledge this time as one of possible dirision in this country along the same lines as slavery was in the 19th century. This is no Vietnam, it's deeper than that. Now of course I can't say who is going to win this one, authroitatvely and without question, but, having said that, I don't believe in polls, polling data, and/or any news organization. I look at what happened in 2000, what's going on politically, and the status of the state voting infrastructure. I earnestly believe that GW Bush will emerge from a cloud of dust again, plain and simple. When he does he's got nothing to loose at that point, barring impeachment. He's bascially got a blank check with this election, if he wins, and believe he will. He won't have to worry about campaigning, or reaching out, he can then swagger his way through another four years. The prospect of this means a few things for the Republican party, much more so than Watergate or Vietnam!! It's that simple, there has to be an analysis of where to go from here.

Being of the moderate Republican strain, I have no party anymore, and there's no way I'm going Dem, not in a million years, my assertion is that the stakes are higher right now than they were in 1968, 1974 etc. To simply acknowledge this as which way the wind just happens to be blowing right now is absurd to me. There needs to be a serious consideration here, of what's around the bend. Granted there isn't alot to be done, but I think there should be a movement of clear thinking intelligent Republicans out of the party now, and this doesn't mean to start voting for tax and spend zealots simply cause they're not stupid and coo-koo and it doesn't mean appending yourself to a lackluster thrid party candidate, it means standing up to the corporate control of the parties and trying to preserve the tradition of the Republican party. There is such a thing as inherent values, and the Republican party should reflect those traditions. Social justice and fiscal responsiblity seem to be highly lacking in this equation, I think both are possible given examples set by TR, DDE, and early RMN administrations. I thought Reagan ran afoul of Republican tradition, much less what Bush and the neo-cons are doing.

A quality sorely lacking not only in the Republican party but in this country is sacrafice. While our service men and women, who constitutue only a small fraction of this country, sacrafice their lives everyday, regular Americans go about they're business, expecting more and more every year, without really doing anything for it in the end. If someone thinks getting up and going to work everyday is all that you have to do, while people are dying in Iraq and entire populations curse the way that we sustain our lifestyles, many times at their expense, than that individual lives in a state of ignorance. What makes the needs of Americans any more important than any other individuals in the world. Herein lies the major problem: We expect to sustain these greedy little lives forever, not realizing that the polices that support this greed, are based on violent and opressive trade practices. I laugh at what the democrats and the Republicans call free trade. In essence if every American scaled back, we could probably afford not having to be so agressive in our search for resources and products, but this will never happen I'm afraid. We'll persist in such a manner until this country runs itself into the ground. Forgive me for trying to find a way out.

-Walrus

Kitsune · 10-22-2004, 01:17 PM

While our service men and women, who constitutue only a small fraction of this country, sacrafice their lives everyday, regular Americans go about they're business, expecting more and more every year, without really doing anything for it in the end.

So, uh, what are you doing to sacrafice, if I might ask? Or what do you suggest?

In essence if every American scaled back, we could probably afford not having to be so agressive in our search for resources and products

What? Consume less? That sounds... unAmerican!

10-22-2004, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

So, uh, what are you doing to sacrafice, if I might ask? Or what do you suggest?

Consume less? That sounds... unAmerican!

There's lots of things people can do. Like just one day a week, walk or ride your bike or carpool or use public transportation to get to work. Buy a car that gets good gas mileage. Cut down on the meat in your diet - it's healthier for you, anyhow. Use at least some solar devices to heat (or cool) your home. Even a passive solar set up can save on your energy bills plus help with the air quality in your community and ultimately the world. Recycle newspaper and aluminum. The list goes on...

russotto · 10-22-2004, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

There's lots of things people can do. Like just one day a week, walk or ride your bike or carpool or use public transportation to get to work. Buy a car that gets good gas mileage. Cut down on the meat in your diet - it's healthier for you, anyhow. Use at least some solar devices to heat (or cool) your home. Even a passive solar set up can save on your energy bills plus help with the air quality in your community and ultimately the world. Recycle newspaper and aluminum. The list goes on...

Doing a bunch of Democratic-mainline feel-good things doesn't do a thing for people in the armed services. There's no connection between the two; you're just exploiting them the same way the Republicans are often (correctly) accused of doing so.

iamthewalrus109 · 10-22-2004, 03:14 PM

In reference to Kitsune's question on sacrafice I have to say that currently I myself don't do too much in this regard, I strive to do as much as I can. Aside from my time spent on constantly speaking out on issues, and researching every topic on politics and world events with a feverish zeal, I try to limit my purhasing, consume less, and live a very basic life. I don't think I could be content living a life of luxury in light of world events especially.

In all honesty there is no such thing as entitlement in this world, yet another quality that is sorely lacking in the US these days is the idea that there are no gurantees. We are not entitled to anything in this world, least of all consumable goods. So what do you fight for?, not oil, not products, you fight for freedom. Freedom from war, oppression, and injustice, that's what I think is worth fighting for, not more war. This country needs to look in before it looks out. I think Americans all need to do what they can to gain control over their own lives. We cede too much control to government, due to the fact we don't want to deal with having to fend for ourselves. The great paradox of "civilized" society is that we increasingly hand off duties to others, eventually leading to powerlessness. This is one reason that terror groups hold the citizenry of the US just as responsible for the actions of it's government. What can John and Jane Q. Citizen do? Well I think conservation is a start, but being conservative isn't easy obviously, and the real problem is while your conserving some other shmoe is guzzling fuel, buying brand name clothes manufactured in sweat shops and using wasteful amounts of energy in the name of freedom. This country has become so brainwashed by advertising and consumerism that many think that freedom means being able to buy whatever you want.

-Walrus

Kitsune · 10-22-2004, 05:03 PM

This country has become so brainwashed by advertising and consumerism that many think that freedom means being able to buy whatever you want.

I don't like the rampant consumer-culture of our society, either. But, really, the only way to stop people from purchasing huge SUVs that they use to drive just down the block, complete with music blaring and the video screen in the back showing a rap video only to the traffic behind them is to do exactly what you do not want:

cede too much control to government

How else, really, do you stop people from doing what comes natural in a capitalistic society? Put a stop to the advertisers? Tell people to not try to make money?

xoxoxoBruce · 10-22-2004, 07:50 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah, beat the “Big SUV” whipping boy some more. If the Gumint didn’t try to force everyone into the disgusting cars of the 70s, the market would have evolved into more efficient cars. Bigger than the do-gooders wanted but a hell of a lot better than the only alternative they gave us which was trucks. Once trucks became cool it was too late. It was part of the culture.

Stop worrying about what other people are driving and look at yourself. I mean look at your trash. That’s where you can see the problem.
Crap being thrown out because it was crap when you bought it. Flashlights that you can’t replace the battery in, and have to buy a new one. Disposable crap that clogs our landfills.
It takes energy to; make it, make the products to package it, move it sometimes half way round the world, then haul it away, haul the packaging away and haul your ass to the Mall to buy more crap.
We throw away TVs and PCs like they were tissues because new ones are cheaper than fixing the old ones. But that receipt only shows part of the cost were going to pay for that item. It’s getting hard to buy anything that can be repaired, anything that can be disassembled and parts replaced.
You don’t have to be a tree hugging greenie, just stop throwing your money and the future away. Don’t blame the sellers for crap in excess packaging. You’re buying it. Stop buying and they’ll change damn quick, money talks.

“Oh, I’m just one person and I can’t affect(effect?) change.” Then don’t vote because your vote can’t make any difference. Same thing.

xoxoxoBruce · 10-22-2004, 07:55 PM

Quote:

A quality sorely lacking not only in the Republican party but in this country is sacrafice. While our service men and women, who constitutue only a small fraction of this country, sacrafice their lives everyday, regular Americans go about they're business, expecting more and more every year, without really doing anything for it in the end. If someone thinks getting up and going to work everyday is all that you have to do, while people are dying in Iraq and entire populations curse the way that we sustain our lifestyles, many times at their expense, than that individual lives in a state of ignorance. What makes the needs of Americans any more important than any other individuals in the world. Herein lies the major problem: We expect to sustain these greedy little lives forever, not realizing that the polices that support this greed, are based on violent and opressive trade practices.

You sure don't sound like a Republican. At least for the last 60 years.

Kitsune · 10-22-2004, 08:20 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah, beat the “Big SUV” whipping boy some more.

Oh, but its so easy! I mean, look at all these people driving these things! How many people are in the average SUV at any given time during the week? One. And some of them get as low as 12mpg or less! And people drive these things that are intended for hauling or off-roading to... the office! (no, I haven't been paying attention to whatever SUV thread has been in the LJ forum)

But, really, they are free to drive what they like and burn up as much gasoline as they like. Still, I'm going to mark these people as, perhaps, the most wasteful in the country when it comes to important resources and energy. Yep, even more than the people that leave the TV on when they're not home. Even more than that kid that runs the water when he brushes his teeth!

If the Gumint didn’t try to force everyone into the disgusting cars of the 70s, the market would have evolved into more efficient cars.

I thought the market did evolve efficient cars during the gas shortage? And, for a brief moment recently, there were actually some people talking about purchasing more reasonable cars because gasoline prices were so high. Oops -- that was short lived, because even with the inflated prices its always good to consooom!

Stop worrying about what other people are driving and look at yourself.

Well, I actually worry about them for other reasons, but probably not for what you think. I drive a little car and the last thing I want to be involved in is an accident with an SUV. But I'm told that its my own fault, you know, for not having purchased a "safe vehicle" like one of those massive trucks that runs on dirty diesel.

I mean look at your trash.

Hmm... banana peels, couple soup cans, junk mail. Oh, hey, the remains of a pear! I almost couldn't tell what one was for a moment. Okay...

I do, actually, live a slightly less "consumer/trash-oriented" life than most. I live in a modest apartment (dense living, not a house) with a roommate, I drive a car that is fuel efficient (that I own and will run into the ground instead of getting a new one after it is five years old), and on days that I don't have to go to class I walk or bicycle to work. All the batteries I use are rechargeable, etc.

Guess what? Instead of people telling me that I was helping this country, you know what I was told? I was told, after September 11th, to go out to eat. I was told to travel on a holiday and not be afraid. I was told to buy a car. I was told that I should look into buying a house or some major appliances. I was told that not doing so was unpatriotic.

Because people weren't buying things and it was damaging the economy. So what do you do? Become more self-sufficient and... hurt the US? Thank god Giuliani helped push the "buy a lot of senseless shit" week.

10-22-2004, 10:14 AM	#18
iamthewalrus109 High Propagandist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 111	Difference between..... In regards to the Republican party surviving Dick Nixon, well as I said in a earlier post to this thread, Nixon was more of his own man, therefore leaving a large component of the party that could still govern legitmately. Furthermore, the Republicans, once the conversation of June 23rd, 1972 became public, closed ranks (Goldwater meeting w/Nixon 8/1974) to deal with his abuses. In the current instance I see, with the execption of a few I have named, complete, blind, and unquestioning alegiance. I feel it is more dispersed this time. Nixon was true arbitor over everthing, hence why he couldn't just get rid of Haldeman and Erlichman and be safe. Accoringly, the downfall of Nixon was at a different time, different cirumstances. The downfall of Nixon had as much to do with him as it did with the fall of the imperial presidency. I think the current situation in the Republican party has the potential to have more of an effect on the party. It's the truth and there's no escaping it. A good proof of this theory is Reagan. He was a contender at the Republcan convention in 1968, his ascendency was just a page from what was left in leadership after Nixon's humiliating resignation in '74. In essence Nixon's resignation is the beginning of the end really. That's when the real whackos took over the party anyway. Hard line conservatives and the Reagan/Bushies took over the party leading to the current form of it, including these Wilsonian neo-con psychos. Look, it all comes down to this: no matter what, there will be major changes in the Repulican party after the next four years. It may not be the technical death of the party, but definately something different. To be honest from a certain perspective the Republican party died on 8/9/1974. Now there are many dissaffected Republicans that are not just dissastified with a candidate, ie Bush, but have a deeper doubt about the direction of the party leadership as a whole. As oppossed to 1974, where the GOP was able to seal off the fire, due to the way Nixon ran things, which usually was on his own. As Reagan said, he saw Nixon as and oppourtunist, someone who used the Repulican party to further his (Nixon's) geopolitical theories. Reagan, Bush, Bush the lesser all engender a deeper representation of the party, they are the party, they are the GOP and they used the entirety of it in their pursuits. -Walrus

10-22-2004, 12:37 PM	#22
iamthewalrus109 High Propagandist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 111	Alright....Let's take a step back here In response to issues of political change and GW Bush winning the election of 2004, well what can I say, I see GW winning and I find that just to acknowledge change as a natural process is not enough. Of course change is ineveitable, especially in politics, but the reason I started this thread was to aknowledge this time as one of possible dirision in this country along the same lines as slavery was in the 19th century. This is no Vietnam, it's deeper than that. Now of course I can't say who is going to win this one, authroitatvely and without question, but, having said that, I don't believe in polls, polling data, and/or any news organization. I look at what happened in 2000, what's going on politically, and the status of the state voting infrastructure. I earnestly believe that GW Bush will emerge from a cloud of dust again, plain and simple. When he does he's got nothing to loose at that point, barring impeachment. He's bascially got a blank check with this election, if he wins, and believe he will. He won't have to worry about campaigning, or reaching out, he can then swagger his way through another four years. The prospect of this means a few things for the Republican party, much more so than Watergate or Vietnam!! It's that simple, there has to be an analysis of where to go from here. Being of the moderate Republican strain, I have no party anymore, and there's no way I'm going Dem, not in a million years, my assertion is that the stakes are higher right now than they were in 1968, 1974 etc. To simply acknowledge this as which way the wind just happens to be blowing right now is absurd to me. There needs to be a serious consideration here, of what's around the bend. Granted there isn't alot to be done, but I think there should be a movement of clear thinking intelligent Republicans out of the party now, and this doesn't mean to start voting for tax and spend zealots simply cause they're not stupid and coo-koo and it doesn't mean appending yourself to a lackluster thrid party candidate, it means standing up to the corporate control of the parties and trying to preserve the tradition of the Republican party. There is such a thing as inherent values, and the Republican party should reflect those traditions. Social justice and fiscal responsiblity seem to be highly lacking in this equation, I think both are possible given examples set by TR, DDE, and early RMN administrations. I thought Reagan ran afoul of Republican tradition, much less what Bush and the neo-cons are doing. A quality sorely lacking not only in the Republican party but in this country is sacrafice. While our service men and women, who constitutue only a small fraction of this country, sacrafice their lives everyday, regular Americans go about they're business, expecting more and more every year, without really doing anything for it in the end. If someone thinks getting up and going to work everyday is all that you have to do, while people are dying in Iraq and entire populations curse the way that we sustain our lifestyles, many times at their expense, than that individual lives in a state of ignorance. What makes the needs of Americans any more important than any other individuals in the world. Herein lies the major problem: We expect to sustain these greedy little lives forever, not realizing that the polices that support this greed, are based on violent and opressive trade practices. I laugh at what the democrats and the Republicans call free trade. In essence if every American scaled back, we could probably afford not having to be so agressive in our search for resources and products, but this will never happen I'm afraid. We'll persist in such a manner until this country runs itself into the ground. Forgive me for trying to find a way out. -Walrus

10-22-2004, 03:14 PM	#26
iamthewalrus109 High Propagandist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 111	Of sacrafice and waiting In reference to Kitsune's question on sacrafice I have to say that currently I myself don't do too much in this regard, I strive to do as much as I can. Aside from my time spent on constantly speaking out on issues, and researching every topic on politics and world events with a feverish zeal, I try to limit my purhasing, consume less, and live a very basic life. I don't think I could be content living a life of luxury in light of world events especially. In all honesty there is no such thing as entitlement in this world, yet another quality that is sorely lacking in the US these days is the idea that there are no gurantees. We are not entitled to anything in this world, least of all consumable goods. So what do you fight for?, not oil, not products, you fight for freedom. Freedom from war, oppression, and injustice, that's what I think is worth fighting for, not more war. This country needs to look in before it looks out. I think Americans all need to do what they can to gain control over their own lives. We cede too much control to government, due to the fact we don't want to deal with having to fend for ourselves. The great paradox of "civilized" society is that we increasingly hand off duties to others, eventually leading to powerlessness. This is one reason that terror groups hold the citizenry of the US just as responsible for the actions of it's government. What can John and Jane Q. Citizen do? Well I think conservation is a start, but being conservative isn't easy obviously, and the real problem is while your conserving some other shmoe is guzzling fuel, buying brand name clothes manufactured in sweat shops and using wasteful amounts of energy in the name of freedom. This country has become so brainwashed by advertising and consumerism that many think that freedom means being able to buy whatever you want. -Walrus

10-22-2004, 07:50 PM	#28
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Yeah, yeah, yeah, beat the “Big SUV” whipping boy some more. If the Gumint didn’t try to force everyone into the disgusting cars of the 70s, the market would have evolved into more efficient cars. Bigger than the do-gooders wanted but a hell of a lot better than the only alternative they gave us which was trucks. Once trucks became cool it was too late. It was part of the culture. Stop worrying about what other people are driving and look at yourself. I mean look at your trash. That’s where you can see the problem. Crap being thrown out because it was crap when you bought it. Flashlights that you can’t replace the battery in, and have to buy a new one. Disposable crap that clogs our landfills. It takes energy to; make it, make the products to package it, move it sometimes half way round the world, then haul it away, haul the packaging away and haul your ass to the Mall to buy more crap. We throw away TVs and PCs like they were tissues because new ones are cheaper than fixing the old ones. But that receipt only shows part of the cost were going to pay for that item. It’s getting hard to buy anything that can be repaired, anything that can be disassembled and parts replaced. You don’t have to be a tree hugging greenie, just stop throwing your money and the future away. Don’t blame the sellers for crap in excess packaging. You’re buying it. Stop buying and they’ll change damn quick, money talks. “Oh, I’m just one person and I can’t affect(effect?) change.” Then don’t vote because your vote can’t make any difference. Same thing. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

10-22-2004, 08:20 PM	#30
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Yeah, yeah, yeah, beat the “Big SUV” whipping boy some more. Oh, but its so easy! I mean, look at all these people driving these things! How many people are in the average SUV at any given time during the week? One. And some of them get as low as 12mpg or less! And people drive these things that are intended for hauling or off-roading to... the office! (no, I haven't been paying attention to whatever SUV thread has been in the LJ forum) But, really, they are free to drive what they like and burn up as much gasoline as they like. Still, I'm going to mark these people as, perhaps, the most wasteful in the country when it comes to important resources and energy. Yep, even more than the people that leave the TV on when they're not home. Even more than that kid that runs the water when he brushes his teeth! If the Gumint didn’t try to force everyone into the disgusting cars of the 70s, the market would have evolved into more efficient cars. I thought the market did evolve efficient cars during the gas shortage? And, for a brief moment recently, there were actually some people talking about purchasing more reasonable cars because gasoline prices were so high. Oops -- that was short lived, because even with the inflated prices its always good to consooom! Stop worrying about what other people are driving and look at yourself. Well, I actually worry about them for other reasons, but probably not for what you think. I drive a little car and the last thing I want to be involved in is an accident with an SUV. But I'm told that its my own fault, you know, for not having purchased a "safe vehicle" like one of those massive trucks that runs on dirty diesel. I mean look at your trash. Hmm... banana peels, couple soup cans, junk mail. Oh, hey, the remains of a pear! I almost couldn't tell what one was for a moment. Okay... I do, actually, live a slightly less "consumer/trash-oriented" life than most. I live in a modest apartment (dense living, not a house) with a roommate, I drive a car that is fuel efficient (that I own and will run into the ground instead of getting a new one after it is five years old), and on days that I don't have to go to class I walk or bicycle to work. All the batteries I use are rechargeable, etc. Guess what? Instead of people telling me that I was helping this country, you know what I was told? I was told, after September 11th, to go out to eat. I was told to travel on a holiday and not be afraid. I was told to buy a car. I was told that I should look into buying a house or some major appliances. I was told that not doing so was unpatriotic. Because people weren't buying things and it was damaging the economy. So what do you do? Become more self-sufficient and... hurt the US? Thank god Giuliani helped push the "buy a lot of senseless shit" week. Last edited by Kitsune; 10-22-2004 at 08:22 PM.

10-21-2004, 08:33 PM	#17
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Excellent point, Bruce! Any entity which can survive Tricky Dick is definately bomb proof!

10-22-2004, 11:08 AM	#19
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Both parties change all the time. Over the last four years, for example, the D party has swayed towards states' rights, foreign isolationism, fiscal responsibility.

10-22-2004, 11:41 AM	#20
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	walrus, why are you reading the election as a Bush win? From where I sit it looks way too close to call in favor of either side.

10-22-2004, 11:46 AM	#21
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Both parties change all the time. Over the last four years, for example, the D party has swayed towards states' rights, foreign isolationism, fiscal responsibility. UT's right. Ever look at what the Republican party represented 40 years ago? Very, very different than today!

10-22-2004, 01:17 PM	#23
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	While our service men and women, who constitutue only a small fraction of this country, sacrafice their lives everyday, regular Americans go about they're business, expecting more and more every year, without really doing anything for it in the end. So, uh, what are you doing to sacrafice, if I might ask? Or what do you suggest? In essence if every American scaled back, we could probably afford not having to be so agressive in our search for resources and products What? Consume less? That sounds... unAmerican!

10-22-2004, 05:03 PM	#27
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	This country has become so brainwashed by advertising and consumerism that many think that freedom means being able to buy whatever you want. I don't like the rampant consumer-culture of our society, either. But, really, the only way to stop people from purchasing huge SUVs that they use to drive just down the block, complete with music blaring and the video screen in the back showing a rap video only to the traffic behind them is to do exactly what you do not want: cede too much control to government How else, really, do you stop people from doing what comes natural in a capitalistic society? Put a stop to the advertisers? Tell people to not try to make money?

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