Pales in Comparision

[jaguar]

Not in a few days.

There is no question the issues in Africa are in various ways, the result of colonial era decisions, particularly dividing the country up with a ruler and a pencil. There really is nothing we can do to resolve those issues now though.

Isreal is another issue entirely, but I'd prefer not to open up that can of worms, the thread will dissolve into partisan sniping in seconds.

I think we largely do learn from those mistakes but both the reasons and results are many and varied. One could argue that there is merely a higher level of international morality these days. It just ain't PC to invade some backward state and work the coffee plantations with slaves anymore.

[russotto]

Originally posted by Undertoad
I'm just saying, in N Korea they have concentration camps with horrible atrocities and millions upon millions of dead and nobody seems to care or really notice.

Commies get a free pass. Except Pol Pot.

Didn't see any mention of Stalin's atrocities upthread, for instance. Even though his were largely committed upon white people.

Remember, it's all the US's fault. If it's not the US's fault by action, it's the US's fault by inaction. In the rare event that blame cannot be pinned on the US, another Western European nation is at fault. Oh yeah, and because it's all the US's fault, the US deserved 9/11 and all that comes after it.

[jaguar]

Well someone forgot their medication this morning.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by russotto
Remember, it's all the US's fault. If it's not the US's fault by action, it's the US's fault by inaction. In the rare event that blame cannot be pinned on the US, another Western European nation is at fault. Oh yeah, and because it's all the US's fault, the US deserved 9/11 and all that comes after it.

This is a mindset that I find disconcerting (The sarcasm behind it, I mean, the actual text is a strawman). It seems to follow this pattern:

1) If someone makes a mistake that contributes to a negative result,
2) then they deserve the full brunt of that result.
3) We didn't deserve 9/11,
4) therefore we must not have done anything to incite it.

I believe that 1) to 2) is not valid, therefore 4) does not follow from the obviously true 3). We've done a ton of stuff in the Middle East that exacerbates the problems that have always existed there. That doesn't excuse terrorism, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't stop doing it.

Originally posted by russotto


Commies get a free pass. Except Pol Pot.

Didn't see any mention of Stalin's atrocities upthread, for instance. Even though his were largely committed upon white people.

Remember, it's all the US's fault. If it's not the US's fault by action, it's the US's fault by inaction. In the rare event that blame cannot be pinned on the US, another Western European nation is at fault. Oh yeah, and because it's all the US's fault, the US deserved 9/11 and all that comes after it.

Quite frankly, this is an example of the sort of mindless patriotism that gets us into one international fix after another. Nobody who has posted so far has tried to make the argument that the old communist regimes should be an example to us all. Not hardly. Its a fairly poor exercise in logic to attempt to imply that people who call for Western accountability do so because they are pinko commie lovers. Nice try, but its a completely irrational conclusion.

If I make the observation that the US has acted in such a manner as to make itself hated by Moslem cultures, this hardly means I am a Bin Laden groupie or that I think terrorist attacks (on EITHER side) are an appropriate solution. If I note that the actions of Western nations have contributed to the destabilization of certain 3rd world nations and make the observation that Western culture (never mind the third world)would be best served if the US and Europe avoided such actions in the future, this hardly makes me a Stalin hugger.

If you can't make a valid point, don't waste your energy.

[tw]

I believe a most important history lesson is being missed here; being lost because so much is being assigned to blame rather than viewing the bigger picture. "Ghosts of Rwanda" at 9 PM tonight on PBS should be a story about hate. Why hate happens. How easy hate can be promoted. Remember, how does one tell the racial difference between a Hutu and Tutsi? Racism and the associated hate is not about genetics - as the spin doctors of hate would have us believe. Hate is more about first impressons - an emotion permitted when logic is subverted.

Why could Hilter kill Jews? Why was Pol Pot so effective? Why could the religious right get the same thing to happen in America by promoting hate of gay? Yes, that is the question. How long would it take the religious right to get us so called righteous Americans to start killing gays?

We called the black man sub human. Why? What were we trying to justify? The question about Rwanda is and again a question about that 'blackness in the eyes'. Easy to hype hate. So easy that we may just be in denial of how easily the righteous religious extremists could promote hate of gays. George Sr did same with the famous lie about "babies were removed from incubators and place on the cold floor to die". No one questioned that testimony so that the lie was even presented, unchallenged, before Congress and national TV. Again, how to promote hate as even Hitler could do in Germany. As the Spanish President Anzar tried to do against the Basques. As NYC police did against a Haitian immigrant only because they believed Haitians create aids and sodomy - again more hate promoted by righteous religious rhetoric.

Sometimes it works. Sometimes it does not create the hate. Why?

Why was hate in Rwanda so successful that Hutus were hacking Tutsi before the first day had ended? A disturbing question not even asked here.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by tw
again more hate promoted by righteous religious rhetoric.

Reason and religion (or contemporary politics for that matter) don't go together. Asking someone to give the up their place in heaven for a little tolerance is asking too much.

[Elspode]

The Rwandan genocides *were* in the news a lot when they were going on, and I often wondered then why there was so little effort to stop it.

I think I put the situation out of my mind by force, though, and the reason I had to do it was so incredibly stupid, that I feel compelled to share it. And I *am* being serious about what I'm about to say, and it *is* going to sound like I'm an idiot, but I assure you that I had no control over what went through my mind (and what started going through my mind once again when this thread got goint).

Whenever I heard about the Rwandan situation and the tribes involved, I could *not* suppress my mind from playing an Al Jolson soundtrack, with him singing "Hutu-Tutsi, goodbye! Hutu-Tutsi, don't cry!"

I know, I know...it is sick, but it isn't like I tried to think it up on purpose.

[tw]

Originally posted by Elspode
... I could *not* suppress my mind from playing an Al Jolson soundtrack, with him singing "Hutu-Tutsi, goodbye! Hutu-Tutsi, don't cry!"

I know, I know...it is sick, but it isn't like I tried to think it up on purpose.

If the voices only want to sing and have a good time ... no problem. Worry when those voices keep telling you to do something.

[blue]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Hey, be reasonable. We're just too busy to kill them all, so we just kill the ones that offend US.:p

You are the master Bruce.

[blue]

Oh christ, another one of your type is all we need here.

Wasting energy.

Originally posted by blue58
Oh christ, another one of your type is all we need here.

Wasting energy.

Hey, anytime. Glad to be of service. Nothing gives me more pleasure than calling you smug, ultra conservative types on your BS.

[russotto]

Originally posted by marichiko


Quite frankly, this is an example of the sort of mindless patriotism that gets us into one international fix after another.

Quite frankly, you wouldn't know a mindless patriot if one bit you on the ass. There's a world of difference between not being a mindless patriot and mindless anti-Americanism or anti-Westernism.

Claiming that 9/11 was merely the "birds coming home to roost", a "first installment" on all the evil America has done, falls under that second category.

Originally posted by russotto


Quite frankly, you wouldn't know a mindless patriot if one bit you on the ass. There's a world of difference between not being a mindless patriot and mindless anti-Americanism or anti-Westernism.

Claiming that 9/11 was merely the "birds coming home to roost", a "first installment" on all the evil America has done, falls under that second category.

Go back and read my original reply to you. If all you can do is repeat your original hysterical accusations, I'm not especially interested.

[Griff]

Originally posted by tw

Lets not forget the Catholic Bishop would even conspired to arraign for a massacre of those he promised to protect. And the Catholic Church who tried to protect the Bishop rather than admit their man did the crime .

Bishop Misago Briefs Pope on Rwanda

VATICAN, Sept. 8 (CWNews.com) -- Bishop Augustin Misago, who spent a year in a Rwandan prison before being acquitted on war-crimes charges, met privately with Pope John Paul II (bio - news) on Friday, prior to returning to his Gikongoro diocese.

Bishop Misago, who was found innocent of all charges in June after a lengthy trial, had said that he hoped to visit the Holy Father before returning to his pastoral assignment. He had spent three months in Europe, undergoing medical treatment, after his release.

The Rwandan bishop said that he wanted to brief the Pope personally about the situation in his country, where charges and counter-charges are still circulating over the massive ethnic slaughter that took place in 1994. He also wanted to thank the Pope for the support he had received from the Holy See during his imprisonment and trial.

Bishop Misago had been arrested on April 14, 1999, shortly after being denounced by the president of Rwanda. But prosecutors failed to provide any substantial evidence that he was involved in the ethnic killing, and in fact his defense team introduced several witnesses who testified that the bishop had done his best to cool ethnic tensions and prevent violence.

Nevertheles, the Rwandan government continued the prosecution, forcing several delays in the trial as they tried to find more evidence, and in May 2000 announced that they would seek the death sentence for Bishop Misago. At that point, Pope John Paul sent a personal telegram to the imprisoned bishop, expressing his solidarity and saying-- as the Holy See had previously said-- that the prosecution appeared to be an effort by the government to make the Catholic Church a scapegoat for the 1994 massacres.

Throughout the trial the bishop was confined in prison. The government of Rwanda has left thousands of people in jails, awaiting trial on war-related charges, for months at a time. The ordeal of Bishop Misago finally ended on June 15 when the Rwandan court found him innocent, and ordered his immediate release.

"In returning to my country I will be running some risks," Bishop Misago has confided to the Fides news agency. "New difficulties are waiting for me. But I am ready to accept them."

"The arrest, the imprisonment for a year, and the request for a death sentence showed the drive to eliminate me," the bishop continued. "Many of my friends here in Europehave told me not to go back to Rwanda, because it would be too dangerous. But I feel that I have to go back."

Bishop Misago explained his determination: "I didn't run away when I was first accused; why should I run away now, after my innocence has been established? If I don't go back, some people will begin to doubt my innocence again."