Some photos of the Los Angeles illegal alien rally

[MaggieL]

It's not a failure to debate to point out somebody claiming moral superiority is in fact just a hypocrite. I debated any point you rased that wasn't name-calling.

Helmsley *is* a red herring because the issue isn't tax evasion; illegals aren't illegal because they may break tax law but because they by definition break immigration law. Helmsley is a citizen and her parents were legal immigrants; I've got no problem with legal immigrants whatsoever...so your "racist" namecalling is exactly that; trying to dignify it as debate is disingenous.

You do look pretty silly criticising me for "preferring to attack your opponent on the few fragments that you know of him" and following it immediately with "looking through your post history, I don't think you are capable"...especially considering that what I called you on was criticising my country on how it handles an issue that yours doesn't have, and for slamming me from a comfortable distance for my "suburban isolation" from issues I encounter personally every day.

So, you're not a native Kiwi, eh? I do hope you're legal and not just a good swimmer.

[billybob]

And again, she continues in the same vein. Clearly I have found the site's attention-seeker.There's always one. As I said, preferring to attack on a few fragments.......You on the other hand, have almost 2000 posts on this board from which I can distill your character.And it's not that pretty.

As for slamming you from a distance, I debated the issues. You on the other hand, were not interested, preferring to attempt to discredit the debater.No doubt you have a following on this board for your tedious style of trolling, but I'd much rather talk to people who know what they are talking about and have the basic intelligence to realise that other people can too.You're stuck in a rut with the notion that because I live in New Zealand,I have no experience with matters of immigration. As I have already indicated, I've lived in places with similar issues.So please, stop trying to portray yourself as the only person who has any experience in the subject, and just get over yourself. You live in Pennsylvania.According to the statistics, you have less than one quarter the national average of Latinos in your community.

Short of ethnic cleansing,there is no way to solve this issue permanently and decisively.There are many opinions on what could be done to alleviate the problem, but if they are not yours, you'd rather ignore them and insult the person who challenges your simplistic position. Your final comment - a throw-away line intended to taunt the opponent and amuse your audience,was too weak.

Perhaps you could advise me of how many latinos your local branch of the INS has detained and repatriated this year? Or are you just picking up a debate from the other side of the continent because your personal prejudices dictate that you must support it, rather than admit that it's a non-event in your town?
As I recall, Pennsylvania is just about as far from the Mexican border as you can get without jumping into the sea. Your argument holds less and less water by the minute.

I can't offer a solution to the problem of racial diversity, because I don't see it as a problem. I can't offer a solution to the problem of historic failure to enforce immigration laws and the institutionalised acceptance of casual labor as a cheap alternative. I can however offer MaggieL a couple of pointers on how better to debate the issue.

1. It is silly to take the position that you know more than I do on the subject simply because you live on the same continent.

2. It is not smart to crap on newbies, particularly if you pick on those who are smarter than you.

3.It's not smart to generalise that the whole of America is on your side and I am simply 'yank bashing'.I like Americans, but I think you are a loudmouthed airhead. Get over it.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by billybob

You live in Pennsylvania.According to the statistics, you have less than one quarter the national average of Latinos in your community.... Or are you just picking up a debate from the other side of the continent because your personal prejudices dictate that you must support it, rather than admit that it's a non-event in your town? As I recall, Pennsylvania is just about as far from the Mexican border as you can get without jumping into the sea.

Pennsylvania is a community? Quaint thought....in fact it's got about half the land area of all of New Zealand. Philadelphia and Potter counties will be amazed to discover they're in the same community. So will their legislators.

Maybe you should try your numbers by postal code: in my case 19403. Then tell the mayor of Norristown that he doesn't really need to issue identity documents to the illegals in his city, because he thinks he does; he says it's making it difficult to provide them with services. (But then, being expert in US politics, you know what whiners the Democrats are.) It may come as quite a shock to him that he doesn't have a problem with illegals, or with the slumlords that are renting them hovels to live in...until they burn down, at least.

While you're at it, tell the local school district that they couldn't possibly have a lot of children of illegals to teach. After all, Mexico is such a long distance away, it might actuallly take almost two days to drive here. Nobody who did a desert crossing at night could have the motivation to spend two days on an interstate highway...the horror.

The crew looking for work at the Home Depot or other day laborer hiring spots every morning will be comforted by your assurance that they can't possibly be illegals, and will thus immediately petition for union membership. The ER staff (I have family members on that staff) at the local hospital will be relieved to hear that the hospital won't be closing as announced and that their waiting room isn't actually filled with illegals who have no other health care and no way to pay for the care they do get.

It's so comforting to have your expert advice on problems happening right here from...what was it you said? "A continent away"? Surely NZ's a bit further than that. But it seems that you think illegal immigrants are only a problem near the southern border...and that's flat out not true. How much time *did* you spend *anywhere* in the US? And when? Whereabouts?

Originally Posted by billybob

Short of ethnic cleansing,there is no way to solve this issue permanently and decisively.

Which is true of most issues. I'd settle for allieviating it...and throtlling the source of illegal employment would be an extremely good start. We can't make 8,000 miles of border as impervious as the shoreline of NZ, but we can certainly reduce the financial payback for breaking the law, withougt building even one more mile of fence.

Originally Posted by billybob

Your final comment - a throw-away line intended to taunt the opponent and amuse your audience,was too weak.

Oooooh....struck a nerve. But wasn't a taunt...it was a question, one I notice you still haven't answered. Maybe you were lying when you said you were lying when you said you started in Mexico. I guess we'll never know which was a lie.

Originally Posted by billybob

Perhaps you could advise me of how many latinos your local branch of the INS has detained and repatriated this year?

I can put some limits on it, though: somewhere between not as many as they could have and many more than I want to pay for. These days deporatation is usually reserved for illegal aliens who are also violent felons, because putting them on a plane is cheaper than putting them in jail.

As I said before, deportation is futile and pointless, the illegals will just turn around and come back as long as there's such a strong financial incentive for them to be here. Deportation may have been a winning strategy for Europeans in the era of steamship travel...it's a joke within North America today.

"Detained and repatrirated" sounds so much nicer than "arrested and deported"...it's a euphemism worthy of saying "undocumented worker" when you really mean "illegal alien".

Originally Posted by billybob

I can't offer a solution to the problem of racial diversity, because I don't see it as a problem.

I don't either.

If you recall, the issue is illegal immigration. It just makes you feel so morally superior to try to paint it as racism, but it isn't.

I'm perfectly OK with my good friend who's a legal Mexican immigrant: a very successful software engineer in San Francisco...and I'd have as big a problem with lilly white illegals, be they from Canada, Europe, Russia, or elsewhere.

It makes me laugh when hear European and French Canadian kids complain of "racism" when they have trouble getting help with their programming homework online. But that's how tired that line has gotten; anything an American does you don't like obviously must be due to racism.

What a load of hooey.

Originally Posted by billybob

1. It is silly to take the position that you know more than I do on the subject simply because you live on the same continent.

I live in the same neighborhood, within less than five miles of every situation I cited above...and I've been "across the continent" (by which I assume you mean California) for extended periods. You admitted you haven't set foot there ever.

Originally Posted by billybob

2. It is not smart to crap on newbies, particularly if you pick on those who are smarter than you.

Well, I'll keep my own counsel on who's smarter. Especially when they're a loudmouth about how smart they are; that's usually a deep counterindication.

Originally Posted by billybob

3.It's not smart to generalise that the whole of America is on your side and I am simply 'yank bashing'.

II'll keep my own counsel on what's "yank bashing" too; I certainly see enough of it to recognise it. As for how widely my opinons are shared amongst the citizens here, you must not be reading the same polls I am.

[billybob]

Fell free to keep you counsel on all and evry subject The correct way to do so does not involve puting a rider immediately after your announcement to do so.

It's good to see you trying to get back onto topic,but too late to convince me. Xenophobic simpletons make poor debating partners. Again you have ducked the opportunity togather simple statististics in favour of rhetoric.

In this whole 'we hate Mexicans' routine I have yet to see anyone who can offer any substative and quantifiable figure as to exactly how much money they have lost because of the issue.

IN DOLLARS AND CENTS, MAGGIEL, what harm have you suffered?
Now's your chance to shine for the rest of the racists.

[MaggieL]

I have to turn in a ledger accounting of my personal damages to the penny to insist that a law be enforced? Nonsense.

"Stop thief!"
"Not until you tell me the exact value of what I'm making off with."

What twaddle.

And you're still dodging the other questions, and doing nothing but namecalling.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If you want the numbers, Google it, there are reams of numbers from multiple sources. You infer that we deal with these illegals in the abstract which is not true. They are a reality here. The last one cost me $3k in a heartbeat.

[billybob]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

And you're still dodging the other questions, and doing nothing but namecalling.

Hilarious. MaggieL has a documented history of insulting other posters when she finds herself outwitted, and yet she still bleats when people apply labels to her. She persists in accusing me of dodging the issue, but has done so multiple times in this thread alone.

Add 'hypocritical' to xenophobic airhead. If you lack the skills to debate the issues, MaggieL, I shall depart this thread until somebody more competent takes up the argument.Life is to short to try and argue with blondes.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If you want the numbers, Google it...

You're missing his strategy: unless you do the work of digging up precice numbers for him to argue against, he claims you have no standing. Pure red herring. Again.

I've seen another collectivist here use exactly the same tactic; active Dwellars may know to whom I refer. It's also reminiscent of the strategy of SCO in SCO v. IBM...see Groklaw.

It's totally lame.

[billybob]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If you want the numbers, Google it, there are reams of numbers from multiple sources. You infer that we deal with these illegals in the abstract which is not true. They are a reality here. The last one cost me $3k in a heartbeat.

This is more like it.A poster who can show just cause for his opinion. I'd love to know how an illegal has cost you $3k.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by billybob

Life is to short to try and argue with blondes.

So much for "racist". :-)

Adios, Vincente.

[billybob]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

You're missing his strategy: unless you do the work of digging up precice numbers for him to argue against, he claims you have no standing. Pure red herring. Again.

It's totally lame.

All you have to do is answer the questions as honestly as you can, instead of clinging to your bias and making personal attacks in the hope that you can deflect attention from the questions. How much have the illegals cost you personally, MaggieL?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by billybob

This is more like it.A poster who can show just cause for his opinion. I'd love to know how an illegal has cost you $3k.

Wrong track. The $3k is an aside. My opinion is based on the respect for the laws and the social evils these people have brought with them.

They're only part of the inner city problems here, but they've made it unsafe to walk the streets in some rural areas all by themselves.

I want illegal immigration stopped, not Mexicans, not South Americans, all of it. I don't care if he's a white, British, PhD/MD, if he's illegal, throw him out.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by billybob

All you have to do is answer the questions as honestly as you can, instead of clinging to your bias and making personal attacks in the hope that you can deflect attention from the questions. How much have the illegals cost you personally, MaggieL?

You should catch up on your own unanswered questions. When and where were you in the US, that so well informs you of conditions here?

And again, I'm not required to present a quantitative cash accounting of my personal losses to insist that our law be enforced with something not even vaguely close to the strictness of--for example--the NZ law that has apparently treated you so well. (Can you imagine the howl that would go up if the US insisted all immigrants spoke English from day one? How "racist"!)

That's not a serious debating point. You might as well say that I have no standing to insist that people not cut down trees in the park unless I sit down and prove how much of my taxes went into each tree.

I don't have to prove damages...it's illegal. A criminal matter, not a tort case.

[billybob]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Wrong track. The $3k is an aside. My opinion is based on the respect for the laws and the social evils these people have brought with them.

They're only part of the inner city problems here, but they've made it unsafe to walk the streets in some rural areas all by themselves.

I want illegal immigration stopped, not Mexicans, not South Americans, all of it. I don't care if he's a white, British, PhD/MD, if he's illegal, throw him out.

Nice duck, bruce. I'll let it slide though. Do tell more about the social evils these Mexicans/British/PhD/MD types have brought.Hope you're better at this than the last one.

[MaggieL]

Still on the "prove you were personally harmed before your laws matter" track. Even better: "prove real harm from your hypothetical illegals". (Funny thing, I don't know of any white Brit PhD illegals. How racist.)

Nobody insists that Billy prove the social harm prevented by the NZ immigration law requiring English proficiency...although I do think that would be easier; it's not really a bad idea...but we'd be "racists" to implement it, of course.

Chasing ghosts...