Middle East erupts - Page 19

DanaC · 08-18-2006, 06:15 PM

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Reading UG´s above diatribe almost made me think he´s just ironic and making a caricature of the Ugly American, but then I realised he´s dead serious...

Sometimes I just look at the screen and my jaw drops. I just don't know where to start. I really don't:P

DanaC · 08-18-2006, 06:16 PM

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Tell me: are we in any way obliged to have petroleum resources hostage to unfriendlies?

Their resources.

DanaC · 08-18-2006, 06:18 PM

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Then we do the Marshall Plan thing and rebuild them more in our image, whereupon they succeed in a fashion previously undreamable

Oh right. I can see how well that's working in Iraq.

footfootfoot · 08-18-2006, 06:40 PM

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Originally Posted by DanaC

Sometimes I just look at the screen and my jaw drops. I just don't know where to start. I really don't:P

At the bottom of the screen is a dropdown menu that says "forum jump".

DanaC · 08-18-2006, 06:47 PM

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At the bottom of the screen is a dropdown menu that says "forum jump".

....I know. I know, I really should.....but...it's utterly compelling. LIke when you are sitting in a bus station and the guy who's been muttering to himself and picking up tin cans, sits down right next to you and says with conviction: "I wouldn't. She never did." (yes that has happened to me:P)

You know you should just leave him to it, but something compels you to enquire.....to delve into his particular brand of madness. Sometimes, that leads to some interesting snippets; other times it all just unravels and leaves you staring horrified into someone else's abyss.

footfootfoot · 08-18-2006, 06:53 PM

Hmmm. The train wreck.

I know.

Ibby · 08-19-2006, 12:48 AM

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Originally Posted by DanaC

The conflicts tw has referred to are not conflicts to decide between the free and the unfree, they are conflicts primarily based on land disputes and historic enmities. It is entirely possible for an 'unfree' people to have a genuine grievance against a 'free' people. The fact that a nation is democratised, does not automatically mean that it is always in the right. But then that's the great thing about democracies.....different opinions are welcomed and debates ensue.

Thank you so much. I've been trying to figure out how to say that for a while. A democratic nation of psycopaths would be much worse off than a nation led by a benevolent dictator, would it not? It's not the form of government that matters, its what the government does. Being a democracy does not make you right, and being a dictatorship or oligarchy or monarchy or tyranny does not make you wrong.

Aliantha · 08-19-2006, 01:50 AM

Even being a communist doesn't make you wrong...

DanaC · 08-19-2006, 03:42 AM

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A democratic nation of psycopaths would be much worse off than a nation led by a benevolent dictator, would it not? It's not the form of government that matters, its what the government does. Being a democracy does not make you right, and being a dictatorship or oligarchy or monarchy or tyranny does not make you wrong.

A succinct and well-argued point.

MaggieL · 08-19-2006, 08:06 AM

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Originally Posted by Aliantha

Even being a communist doesn't make you wrong...

Depends on what the topic under discussion is.

And the problem with "benevolent dictators" is so few of them can stay benevolent for long enough. That kind of power distorts the mind utterly.

DanaC · 08-19-2006, 08:31 AM

There are many problems with dictators, benevolent or otherwise. But it's important to keep reminding ourselves that just because a country is (or claims to be) a 'free' nation or democracy, does not automatically make it right in all things. The assumption that a country is right in all things is one step along a very dangerous path.

Personally, I would rather live in a Western Democracy than in any other system. But then again, I was born and have always lived in such a system. I like my culture. I like many of the assumptions that are made within liberal democracies. I am a feminist and find many other cultures difficult to understand when it comes to the role of women within them.

This does not mean that I am 'right' and they are 'wrong'. This is my culture. That is their culture. I do not fully understand their culture, so I am not in a position to judge it fully. It may be that we are 'ahead' of them. Or, it may be that we are all on entirely different trajectories and heading to very different places. Who are we to say that our trajectory is right? It is right for us....I might even think that it is probably right for them. But that's a thought in the head of a Western woman in a Western Liberal democracy. I am a product of my environment as is my thinking.

MaggieL · 08-19-2006, 09:10 AM

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Originally Posted by DanaC

This does not mean that I am 'right' and they are 'wrong'. This is my culture. That is their culture. I do not fully understand their culture, so I am not in a position to judge it fully.

How admirably relativist. No, really...

Griff · 08-19-2006, 09:13 AM

WARNING : Free Association Ramble to Follow

Tangentally, there were concerns with unleashing the passions of the mob when our own government was formed. Unfortunately W doesn't have the education to apply that concern to his Arab democracy project. How powerful does the US Presidency have to become beore corruption is inevitable? All governmental systems are horribly flawed, so we hope for other checks whether cultural, religious, or systematic. I'm hoping W's recent judicial setback isn't overthrown and I'd like to see Congess grow up. Unfortunately, even our chosen masters are cowed.

DanaC · 08-19-2006, 09:43 AM

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How admirably relativist. No, really...

Alright. explain to me why what I said was incorrect.

Spexxvet · 08-19-2006, 10:06 AM

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Originally Posted by DanaC

Alright. explain to me why what I said was incorrect.

It was incorrect because Maggie doesn't agree with you.

08-18-2006, 06:53 PM	#276
footfootfoot To shreds, you say? Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: in the house and on the street-how many, many feet we meet! Posts: 18,449	Hmmm. The train wreck. I know. __________________ The internet is a hateful stew of vomit you can never take completely seriously. - Her Fobs

08-19-2006, 01:50 AM	#278
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Even being a communist doesn't make you wrong... __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

08-19-2006, 09:13 AM	#283
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	WARNING : Free Association Ramble to Follow Tangentally, there were concerns with unleashing the passions of the mob when our own government was formed. Unfortunately W doesn't have the education to apply that concern to his Arab democracy project. How powerful does the US Presidency have to become beore corruption is inevitable? All governmental systems are horribly flawed, so we hope for other checks whether cultural, religious, or systematic. I'm hoping W's recent judicial setback isn't overthrown and I'd like to see Congess grow up. Unfortunately, even our chosen masters are cowed. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

08-19-2006, 08:31 AM	#281
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	There are many problems with dictators, benevolent or otherwise. But it's important to keep reminding ourselves that just because a country is (or claims to be) a 'free' nation or democracy, does not automatically make it right in all things. The assumption that a country is right in all things is one step along a very dangerous path. Personally, I would rather live in a Western Democracy than in any other system. But then again, I was born and have always lived in such a system. I like my culture. I like many of the assumptions that are made within liberal democracies. I am a feminist and find many other cultures difficult to understand when it comes to the role of women within them. This does not mean that I am 'right' and they are 'wrong'. This is my culture. That is their culture. I do not fully understand their culture, so I am not in a position to judge it fully. It may be that we are 'ahead' of them. Or, it may be that we are all on entirely different trajectories and heading to very different places. Who are we to say that our trajectory is right? It is right for us....I might even think that it is probably right for them. But that's a thought in the head of a Western woman in a Western Liberal democracy. I am a product of my environment as is my thinking.

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