Saddam to Swing

[yesman065]

Gee tw, I tell you I don't listen to Rush and now your spouting about Fox - guess what? Wrong again, as usual. It seems you only hear what you want - anything negative towards the republicans you take as gospel. Can't you find any middle ground?

Fox... what a joke.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I don't remember mentioning Katrina.

You called other nations shitbags because you did not see their help after trivial hurricanes in FL? Well, when America REALLY needed help, then others offered it. Help was rejected. Did you ask how many times such assistance from Bahamas was also rejected? Or did you automatically assume all other nations are scum until proven otherwise - the classic Fox News assumption?

Katrina demonstrates exactly why you did not see foreign assistance during 'normal' hurricanes. Why did you post nonsense – that I did not answer your question? Damning fact called Katrina even demonstrates why foreign assistance is not permitted in FL. Why do you forget those facts? Did you consult responsible news sources – or do you believe hate promoted by Limbaugh and Fox News?

Why would other nations be permitted to offer assistance when the mental midget would not even let them help in New Orleans? This question is never asked by the mental midget supporters who believe Fox News, CBN, or Limbaugh.

Shame on you for not immediately understanding the lessons of Katrina. Your post was answered brutally correct. Katrina demonstrates why you don’t see foreign assistance in FL. Only a disciple of Fox New hate would have promoted so much contempt for the countrymen of Billy and Sundae Girl.

5 trivial category 4 & 5 hurricanes you did not live through that were before Katrina, that you seem obsessed with?
It was never offered in FL.
Now I see why others say what they do about you.
Fox news, as screwed-up as it is, has nothing to do with it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Gee tw, I tell you I don't listen to Rush and now your spouting about Fox - guess what? Wrong again, as usual.

Well you nicely avoided questions that beg you to defend an indefensible posts. This is, Yesman065, what you do not reply to; what exposes that previous post as naive and hateful:

So who did respond to Liberia's call (a country created by Americans) when they recently needed from a military massacre? Not the US. So who rescued hundreds of Americans recently in Ivory Coast? Not the US. Why did the entire USS Lincoln task force sit nearby in Hong Kong for five days - never moved - as people were dying after a tsunami and after the world had been providing assistance?

Good Americans view foreigners as peers and allies. Extremists somehow believe only Americans do the good - due to Fox News, et al distortions. To those outside of America - yes the hate believe by a minority of Americans and George Jr supporters is that extreme. To them, you are second class people.

But then I should not have to be the ones posting this. Non-Americans should be asking Yesman065 why he has so much contempt for non-Americans.

Well, Yesman065: there were a long list of questions in that post that any informed American could answer? They were asked of you. Where are your answers? If you have so much contempt for non-Americans, then easily you can answer those questions. Show us how the nations of Billy, Sundae Girl, Cyclefrance, etc are so pathetic? Answer those questions in This Post.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

5 trivial category 4 & 5 hurricanes you did not live through that were before Katrina, that you seem obsessed with?
It was never offered in FL.
Now I see why others say what they do about you.
Fox news, as screwed-up as it is, has nothing to do with it.

The only category 5 hurricane to hit FL was Andrew. And the US government declared it was a nothing until that lady county commissioner in Homestead said to the press (five days later), "Send everything you have now. People will be dying in hours."

Other hurricanes were normal violent storms little different from what is ongoing with surprise ice and snow storms this past 30 days. List for me these four category hurricanes that required world wide aid like an Indian Ocean tsunami? Yes, rkzenrage. I have little tolerance for posts devoid of supporting facts and based in emotional perceptions. I don't care who anyone is. You post myths, I will challenge. If those hurricanes were so devastating in a state where hurricanes are normal, then list those four category five hurricanes? What were these storms that should have mobilized Chile and Italy to send assistance?

rkzenrage, you posted an excellent article in Point of No Return. That is the kind of discussion that earns respect. If foreigners are denying Americans what America also provided to the world, then your reasoning should be as convincing as that article on fisheries. That article summarizes questions I thought we were asking for years - for example how lobsters have long (I thought) selected for harvest. Nothing in that post is about personal bias or turns speculation into fact. It asks damning questions. That is what I have asked. Where are these four category 5 FL hurricanes?

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

Well you nicely avoided questions that beg you to defend an indefensible posts. This is, Yesman065, what you do not reply to; what exposes that previous post as naive and hateful: Good Americans view foreigners as peers and allies.
But then I should not have to be the ones posting this. Non-Americans should be asking Yesman065 why he has so much contempt for non-Americans.
there were a long list of questions in that post that any informed American could answer? Where are your answers? If you have so much contempt for non-Americans, then easily you can answer those questions. Show us how the nations of Billy, Sundae Girl, Cyclefrance, etc are so pathetic? Answer those questions

I never said I had contempt for Non-Americans! EVER! Don't ever misquote me you shit! I'll repeat what I said in my earlier post - We are, BY FAR, the most generous nation on this planet - period. I never desparaged any other nation EVER! I don't need to defend myself - especially to you! You are the one who is spouting misinformation and outright lies, not I.

I don't need to list the amount of aid America has given to the rest of the world - or how many countries we aid ever year. What end does that serve? Oh, fuck it heres a lil tidbit for you:
"In 2004, the United States is providing some form of foreign assistance to about 150 countries. Israel and Egypt continue, as they have since the late 1970s, as the largest recipients, although Iraq, receiving over $20 billion for reconstruction activities since mid-2003. The importance of Latin America counter-narcotics efforts is also evident, with Bolivia, Peru, and more recently, Colombia, among the top U.S. aid recipients. The impact of the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001, and the subsequent use of foreign aid to support the war on terrorism is clearly seen in the country-aid allocations for FY2004. Afghanistan, Pakistan,Turkey, Jordan, and Indonesia are key partners in the war on terrorism."
Oh, and just for good measure - (Paraphrase)By nearly all measures, the amount of foreign aid provided by the United States hit an alltime
low in the mid1990s(end) - Who was President then????
Bill Clinton : 1993-2001
Now write a fuckin' retraction.

[tw]

Originally Posted by yesman065

I never said I had contempt for Non-Americans! EVER! Don't ever misquote me you shit! I'll repeat what I said in my earlier post - We are, BY FAR, the most generous nation on this planet - period.

Well now we all know who is correct. In frustration, you are now posting disparaging words. No, you did not say you have contempt for non-Americans just like a 1950 southern did not say he had contempt of a negro. But the bottom line fact remains obvious in your post. You make this claim of generosity that is not proven by facts and numbers. And then you post it again without doing what a patriotic American does - get and learn those facts.

The five top 'American aid' recipients were before Iraq was 'liberated'. Currently no one really knows how much is going to Iraq since corruption is so widespread in this American government - no bid contracts being only the tip of what may be a massive iceberg.

Meanwhile, aid to S America, Africa, etc has always existed - and was trivial. Since we threw an expense probe at it, does the moon also end up on that aid list?

When the US government convened a world council to coordinate rebuilding of Iraq in 2004(?), the number was $40 billion. The world gasped. That was far more than the US provides as aid to all of Africa (except Egypt). So where is all this generous aid? When do you post numbers to support your claims? Last numbers I saw put Scandinavian countries and France high on the list - well above America. Why do you make the same questioned claim - and still not provide any numbers? Do you automatically know - not need to first learn facts? Only wacko left and right wing extremists do that. I am sure you would not want to be one of those. Clearly you are reassessing your claims by first consulting sources. Good. Now let’s see some numbers for this generosity.

[DanaC]

If we are so evil, don't use our agricultural, pharmaceutical, medical, engineering, textile, military technology, don't come here for your education and heart surgery, don't use US dollars to save or invest, don't buy US goods, don't use US ships or military goods, don't ask us to protect you when the UN drags it's sweet ass or won't help you or our support in the UN, don't-don't-don't, because if we are the bad guys, you don't want any damn thing to do with us... so put-up or shut-up.

Okay. First off the 'ghostbusters' jibe was just that, a friendly jibe. Second: what you are suggesting is that if other nations are soo pissed off with America then they shouldn't seek any help, equipment, trade, expertise etc from the States. That suggests that the world at large should accept all help, equipment, trade, expertise etc purely on America's terms. If we are accepting such help then we have no right to complain about America.

The thing is, America, like any global power (currently THE global power) gives a great deal to the world. America contributes a ridiculously high amount to scientific breakthroughs for example. America has the sheer weight and force to make a difference in innumerable conflicts. America has the wealth to make a hugh impact on a great many social and economic problems in the world.

But.....and this is a big but...just as one would expect of a global power, America acts primarily in its own interests. America does not sell its high-tech products and expertise to the world out of charity. America (the body politic, not the people) focuses much of its aid efforts on those nations which have something to offer in return, such as a political/cultural toehold in an area or to ensure the more desirable party wins out in cases of civil unrest. Just like any other global power throughout history, and I don't doubt for the remainder of human civilisation, America acts first and foremost in its own interests.

There's nothing wrong with that. It is the duty of every government to act in the best interests of its own nation. Sometimes the interests of that nation are best served, or believed to be best served, by actions which cause a great deal of good in the world. Conversely, sometimes the interests of that nation are best served, or believed to be best served, by actions which cause a great deal of harm. Sometimes another nation, or body of nations, seeks assistance from America and that assistance is deemed weighted enough along that scale of interests that help would best be
given. Conversely, sometimes another nation, or body of nations, seeks assistance from America and that assistance is deemed weighted enough in the other direction on that scale that help would best be denied.

There are times when America is approached for help by one side in a conflict, for aid against their enemy. There are times when America becomes aware of a conflict that holds sides that fit easily into America's own moral imperatives. In those cases, it is sometimes deemed useful, or right, to intervene. For one side of that conflict, America looks like a saviour....for the other side of that conflict, she looks very different.

America is acting no differently in this, than has any great nation since great nations first existed. A great nation does good and harm, almost in equal measure. It just depends on which face of the prism you choose to look into.

However, the US gets a far greater percentage of negative press based on what it does than other nations.
We do some bad, but we do FAR more good.
What I am saying is that if those nations that denounce us so vigerously... and MANY do, think we are so evil... don't take our tainted fruit.
I don't buy from morally corrupt businesses if I am aware of their practices.
How many won't go see, or spend money on in any way, a Mel Gibson movie now that he is out of the closet as an anti-Semite?
I don't let my money go to Roman Polanski or Woody Allen movies because pedophilia, especially incestuous pedophilia, should never be encouraged... particularly when they got away with it and were accepted back into their profession. So I don't buy from, or patronize any, production from them.

Same deal... if we are evil, don't deal with the devil, you don't get to have it both ways.

If someone states "I don't like this ONE decision, and this is WHY, but the US is still our ally and friend and we support them", for one thing... no sweat.
That is not what is happening.

[DanaC]

America gets no more bad press than Britain used to. That is the price of being the most powerful nation on earth. America benefits from the choices it makes, so do those they help. Some countries benefit greatly from some things America does, whilst simultaneously being damaged by other things that America does.

To suggest that peoples who are dismayed by some of the things America does, should disassociate themselves from any and all dealings with America is absurd. Nations are symbiotic.

Benefits?
You must not have read my earlier post... a knife in the back is not a benefit.
I did not say nations that just did not like "some things", and you know it.
This nation is being denigrated constantly, worldwide, and within the UN our voting power is being slowly removed by those who call themselves our allies.
Acts like that should come at a cost.
These are nations we protect, feed, house, keep well, etc, etc...
But, I'm a Libertarian, these are things we should be doing for our own FIRST, BEFORE anyone else.

[DanaC]

I agree you should be looking to the welfare and happiness of your own people first.

The reason your nation is being denigrated worldwide, is because your nation is involved worldwide. Involved in both positive and negative ways. Your nation also benefits from such worldwide involvement, or else it would not seek it. Without worldwide involvement your nation would not be as great and powerful as it currently is.

As to the knife in the back. That is global politics. Its a dirty game.
When Britain and Europe were devastated by the second world war, America offered help to rebuild. But that help was offered at a very expensive cost. The help offered to Britain for instance, was at the cost of decoupling our currency from the Gold Standard. Decoupling from the gold standard damaged Britain and had an irretrievable effect on our future wealth and power. We needed America's help, but America exacted a cost that damaged us. There are those who see that as a knife in the back. There are others who see it as a necessary development and consider that the benefits and intent outweighed the damage.

This is global politics. America acts in its interests and sometimes that helps other nations and sometimes it harms other nations. Other nations also act in their own countrys' interests, sometimes that means supporting America and sometimes it means opposing America. Sometimes America does right by its allies, sometimes America treats its allies barely as allies at all. Sometimes America's allies treat fairly with America, sometimes they do not. It is no different to the way it has always been, only the names of the players have changed.

America affects the world positively and negatively, as does every other country. The difference is that America is a leviathon and the effects therefore more dramatic. When America affects the world positively, the lives of millions are improved; when America affects the world negatively, whole regions may be thrown into chaos. This doesn't make America bad; nor does it make America good. America is America. It is neither the bogy man nor the ultimate cavalry. It is simply the most powerful nation on the planet, and as such most other nations will find their fates intertwined with it. Some aspects of that will be cheered, some will be opposed.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by tw

Well now we all know who is correct. In frustration, you are now posting disparaging words. No, you did not say you have contempt for non-Americans You make this claim of generosity that is not proven by facts and numbers. And then you post it again without doing what a patriotic American does - get and learn those facts.

The five top 'American aid' recipients were before Iraq was 'liberated'.
So where is all this generous aid? When do you post numbers to support your claims? Clearly you are reassessing your claims by first consulting sources. Good. Now let’s see some numbers for this generosity.

You are a pompous ass and you prove it repeatedly. I gave you numbers - they are right up there in my last post - notice the "quotes". I quoted you factual information and you will now try to wiggle your way out by dismissing the valid and OBVIOUS point that you are WRONG.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by tw

Again too much Fox News hyperbias. When Katrina hit New Orleans, the French, British, Mexican, and numerous Caribbean nations immediately offered assistance. Many had equipment immediately available that was desperately needed in New Orlean. The American government refused to permit any to help. Why did Fox News forget to mention that? Something about the pride of a president is more important than lives in New Orleans?

Can you give a link to that or some proof?