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Current Events Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it |
View Poll Results: Do you support saving the US auto companies with tax payer money? | |||
I support saving any one or all of them. |
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1 | 3.13% |
I support assisting them for a limited time with a limited amount. |
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11 | 34.38% |
I don't support saving them. |
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19 | 59.38% |
I have another plan to save them from certain death (explain below) |
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1 | 3.13% |
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll |
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#256 |
NSABFD
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: MS. usa
Posts: 3,908
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Hey Bruce, where's the link that you sent? Subject. Stinks. About the folks who own Chrysler. Found it.
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/09/chr...0gerstein.html
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I've haven't left very deep footprints in the sands of time. But, boy I've left a bunch. Last edited by busterb; 12-12-2008 at 07:16 PM. Reason: add link |
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#257 | |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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Innovation.
Quote:
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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#258 |
still says videotape
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
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I heard a GM "commercial" on NPR yesterday. They said something about Chevy Volt being ready to go... except a little thing called batteries.
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If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis |
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#259 | |
still says videotape
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
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Quote:
Along the way, Goodwin also adopted two views common among Americans, but typically thought to be in conflict: a love of big cars and a concern about the environment. He is an avid, if somewhat nonideological, environmentalist. He believes global warming is a serious problem, that reliance on foreign oil is a mistake, and that butt-kicking fuel economy is just good for business. But Goodwin is also guiltlessly addicted to enormous, brawling rides, precisely the sort known to suck down Saudi gasoline. (I spied one lonely small sports car in the corner of his garage, but he confessed he has no plans to work on it right now.) When he picked me up from my hotel, he drove a four-door 2008 Cadillac Escalade XL that should have had its own tugboat. He parallel parked it in one try. He's a John Wayne muther-fucker. Get off your ass Detroit.
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If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis |
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#260 |
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posts: 21,393
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Yea, ready to go in 2011.
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Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012! |
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#261 | ||
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
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Some more info on the Volt
GM Says Chevrolet Volt Won't 'Pay the Rent' Quote:
Quote:
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"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt |
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#262 | ||
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
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Quote:
Quote:
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"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt |
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#263 |
I hear them call the tide
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Perpetual Chaos
Posts: 30,852
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![]() But but but..... How come the workers are allowed to be paid on top of unemployment benefit. if the company is still paying them anything they're not damn well unemployed. beest had a week unemployed last year, but his company owed him a day of paid vaction, so they paid him for one day and it was deducted from his unemployment. Why isn't what GM pays their wotkers deducted from theirs? Surely Union contracts cannot override State laws? /angry layperson
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The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart |
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#264 | |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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Quote:
Some must die. They ran to manufacturers who buy parts only on price. Whose autos demonstrate what happens by ignoring Deming, innovation, and other reasons why GM and Chrysler must now enter bankruptcy. Jobs must be lost, in part, because bean counters played money game rather than surrender the company to innovators. 1991 - GM was four hours away from bankruptcy. Instead GM played money games such as shorting pension funds, then inventing a myth about legacy costs to hide their mismanagement. Since too many Americans continued to buy their myths and crap, now the damage must be deeper and more painful. Time to save these jobs was back in the 1990 when it was obvious what was needed. Just another example of why good Americans buy using the free market - ignore anti-American myths such as "buy American". Time to save those jobs was when Clinton tried to do it by giving them hundreds of $millions to design hybrids. Clinton administration knew what was necessary to save jobs. The solution was subverted by the George Jr administration and Congress that stopped demanding innovation from automakers. Time to pay. Fundamental economics demands that it be painful. Of course, GM today all but said they will go bankrupt on 1 June. Chrysler has little hope of averting bankruptcy. Now that GM no longer had Wagoner, GM is slowly admitting how bad their company and products really are. GM also will shutdown factories for up to 9 weeks this summer. At least GM will not make the mistake of manufacturing more bad vehicles as Chrysler did in 1978. Last edited by tw; 04-22-2009 at 11:20 PM. |
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#265 |
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 23,401
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Parts companies will go under - many of them, because the borrow and spend game is O-V-E-R. Time for us all to live within our means. We all better get used to it and fast. Spending money one does not have does not work.
The false demand has vanished and the fictional wealth that was being spent is gone. Supply will shrink to that of the real demand. The strong shall survive and the weaker companies will perish. Simple irrefutable facts.
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"like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt |
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#266 | |
Professor
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: the edge of the abyss
Posts: 1,947
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Quote:
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#267 |
Professor
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: the edge of the abyss
Posts: 1,947
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I never understood why a company would have to borrow money to pay workers or bills. If you grow so fast that you can't make your bills with your profits, maybe you need to scale back.
And the only reason why GM might make more fuel efficient cars than anyone else, is because they make so many damn differnet kinds of cars. They also probably the most ineffecient cars. What kills me is from the 70s, after the big fuel shortage, until 1983 the fuel efficiency doubled. After that it stood still. In addition, the weight of cars increased about 1000 pounds and horsepower doubled as well, which added to inefficiency. Less than 1% of the energy in the tank actually moves the car. From 1985 until 2007 mileage standards remained unchanged but big truck and SUV sales almost doubled. Because these vehicles have lower standards than cars, average fuel economy today is actually a bit less than it was 20 years ago, despite hard-won gains in engine efficiency. I got all this information last night when I watched NOVA, Car of the Future. You can check it here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/ They had previews of all kinds of future cars plus ones that are available now, like the Tesla. But the Tesla is expensive, it is comparable to other high end sports cars. It is fully electric though. It goes 250 miles on a single charge. And it is 85% efficient, as opposed to the 20% or less efficient combustion engine. Tesla is working on a more affordable family style car, but it will still be in a higher price range than a lot of people can afford, like a Lexus or BMW or Mercedes or something. Maybe Congress should be giving money to people like that, to help bring down the prices so more people can afford them. http://www.teslamotors.com/ |
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#268 | |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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Quote:
Mercedes that has nothing but big cars has same fuel efficiency numbers even though GM has many small cars. This becomes obvious once we add other numbers. Mercedes cars routinely do 70 horsepower per liter or higher. GM still has cars that remain evn in the 50s. That fundamental world standard says who implies who needs bankruptcy to eliminate MBA management. Why is GM hurting? GM cars are so poor - so designed by business school graduates - that many models still require two extra pistons just to equal a standard performance engine. So they blame the unions. What is the background of a chief engineer? Industrial arts. Somebody who better understands fashion. Why did fuel economy increase in the 1970s? Less pollution (what myth purveyors spin as pollution control equipment) means a car burns more fuel for energy and less fuel wasted as pollution. In short, government regulation required automakers use electronic ignition, fuel injection, and other innovations that had existed decades and generations previously. Once we stopped demanding reduced pollution, then gas mileage stopped increasing. Yes, it remains a lie: decreased pollution means decreased gas mileage. Propaganda that lives on when one forgets to ask embarrassing questions and demand the numbers. Same myths claim GM has high mileage cars. World standard is just under 21 MPG. GM's number is just over 18 MPG because GM's products were designed in accounting departments. So many high mileage cars from GM is a GM claim. Therefore it is probably a lie. I did the numbers. Reality. GM's mileage numbers are only higher than Chrysler - another crappy auto company - that averages 17 MPG. |
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#269 | |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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To claim profits, GM shorted their pension funds. Then lied by spinning it unfair legacy costs. (BTW, the Fox News propagandist also said same.) If (more likely, when) bankruptcy occurs, GM's obligations to pensioners would disappear. This means more $billions from the government (PBGC). But that only covers part of the $billions that GM shorted to claim profits and justify massive bonuses to their executives. Why does GM owe so much? Instead of addressing reasons for bankruptcy in 1991, bean counters (including Rick Wagoner) shorted the pension funds. When those employees were working, GM simply forgot to fund the pension fund. When those employees retired, GM still had not funded the pension fund.
This problem was obvious to everyone (who wanted to know) for the past 15 years. Some of us helped GM harm America. Some continued to buy the "Heart attack of America". Shame on anyone who bought a GM product in the past 15 years - helped GM continue their many scams. To cover some debts, GM sold off Hughes Electronics. All profits from that sale (some tens of $billions) went into the pension funds. But that still was not enough because GM lies (creative accounting) was that massive. How large? From the Washington Post of 24 Apr 2009: Quote:
For years, this Rick Wagoner promoted 'legacy costs' myth was so obvious that all should have known it. Nobody can deny the reality of a damning number that said GM was in trouble: 70 horsepower per liter engine. More corporate welfare as government gets stuck with another $billions bill. How long ago had this event become obvious? American protecting its turf Enron accounting was alive and well and encouraged by deregulation. Time to start paying - and then Cellar extremists will again blame Obama. Remember years ago when the LA Times defined how bad GM really was? So GM attacked the LA Times to bankrupt it. Of course. What's good for GM is good for America - no matter how much it harms America. That was the GM mantra even 30 years ago - for those who remember the 1970s. It never changed. Good news though. America has many patriotic companies from Japan and Europe making cars here. |
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#270 | |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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Quote:
![]() They not only underfunded the pension plans a lot of what they did fund was invested in GM stock.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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