The coming liberal thugocracy

[Griff]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I don't see that as a better idea...


But basically the general public has to get their shit together and show some fiscal responsibility too. No you don't have to spend every cent you can beg, borrow and steal. No you don't need 8 credit cards maxed out. No you don't need a Jumbotron bigger than your house. I've rambled enough.

The good idea part is that the money will flow to whatever sectors of the economy the people value, hopefully avoiding the boom-bust of a massive temporary commitment by the Feds, which can lead to massive mis allocation of men and material. Middle-class folks can get their financial lives in order if they choose to.

There is a lot to be said for Obama's plan to improve infrastructure, but we do have to remember that the Democratic majority is temporary so the money spent needs to go into things of permanence that Republicans will complete or maintain. It is also possible to make the recession longer by hindering the natural flow of capital and manpower. At work, there is a lot of talk about Obama's comittment to early education, which I see as a good long-term investment. Unfortunately, relying on Federal dollars means that the comittment and the dollars can disappear on a whim leaving us with too many resources committed to things not presently in our bare-bones operation. I can see our organization going belly up if money leaves before mandates are reduced, which is standard Republican practice.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I just read today about PA; I fear other states are in the same boat.

PA has unique problems because foundations beneath their roads are significantly less than what New Jersey does. PA roads break down faster because of insufficient, or in some cases, no roadbed foundations. The interstate highway called Route 80 as an example of why PA must spend more money constantly fixing roads. Citing PA is a poor or worse case example.

Question of whether money spent is on the right things will always be a challenge. But here is the rub. The economic benefits from these capital projects does not appear for four years.

Economics is not solved by making jobs. Jobs are only a symptom. How to make more jobs? Do the same work with less people. So yes, the sound byte is “make more jobs by eliminating employees.” (An example of how soundbytes distort facts.) 'Reap the benefits' (make possible more jobs) occurs when the benefits appear on spread sheets mostly four and more years later.

Making jobs by only making work creates less jobs. Especially true in an economy that must have a lower American standard of living to be fixed. Economics takes revenge for unproductive ‘make jobs’ activities. The solution (to stop economics taking revenge) has traditionally been things we don't like to admit such as bankruptcies and higher interest rates.

One can appreciate the severe contradictions that Obama faces. This recession is directly traceable to what we were doing four and more years ago. There is no short term solution for that kind of problem other than to minimize its symptoms using many forms of welfare (ie government spending without corresponding tax increases).

Very interesting will be how these policies will 'fix' an economy that deserves a severe recession, lowering the nation’s living standards, and the resulting hard decisions. It will be very interesting to see how policies that contradict the lessons of history will somehow solve this problem.

Some are so foolish as to ignore the numbers - assume the economy will upturn in a year. That's not what numbers suggest. The numbers say we will be paying off the last decade of economic mismanagement for most of the next decade.

That also gives credence to European suggestions that the Euro may replace the dollar as the dollar once replaced the pound. No, I am not saying that will happen either despite the many who would jump to that conclusion. But we have a problem far more serious that many realize as the elite profited massively while leaving Enron accounting lies that are only just beginning to be discovered.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It just seems like such a small area of the economy I don't see how it is going to jump start us back on the road to economic recovery. How does any of that address the real estate issue, mortgage crisis, or banking issues?

True it's only one area that needs to be addressed, but one I don't want to see kicked to the curb in the fray. I'm not sure the feds can solve the real estate/mortgage/banking mess beyond treating the symptoms and letting play out. I hope somebody much smarter than me (that's most everyone) can find a solution.

Originally Posted by tw

Question of whether money spent is on the right things will always be a challenge. But here is the rub. The economic benefits from these capital projects does not appear for four years.

True, but maybe if people see some tangible effort to improve their infrastructure and services, they will perceive they can put some faith in the future and boost the economy.

Some are so foolish as to ignore the numbers - assume the economy will upturn in a year. That's not what numbers suggest. The numbers say we will be paying off the last decade of economic mismanagement for most of the next decade.

First I was hearing a year and was very skeptical. Then I was hearing 3to4 years and was cautiously optimistic. But I think we have to face the probability that we may never regain the level we've been living at for the past decade.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

True, but maybe if people see some tangible effort to improve their infrastructure and services, they will perceive they can put some faith in the future and boost the economy.

There is no doubt that infrastructure has been neglected. After all, replacing something does not get the credit found in building something new. The question also remains what infrastructure must be abandoned with the lower living standards.

We know just making jobs does not solve problems. But then look at the wide ranging questions already being asked by Obama.

For example, virtually all earth environment science in NASA has been quashed. Some birds were ready to fly when killed. Obama is asking some embarrassing questions about the new (Orion?) spacecraft ((that is rumored to have Shuttle like development problems). Also asking about grounding of so much science (American spaceflight) to pay for a 'Man to Mars' boondoggle. IOW he is asking about restarting the tiny budgets where virtually all NASA science was once done - such as something like eight earth environmental science spacecraft. After all, that (innovation, discovery, science) is what created productive jobs. So yes, this man appears to be asking damning questions that would result in productive jobs.

The initial problem cannot be solved. Massive obstruction to science over most of the past decade will haunt us with jobs not created in the next decade. Jobs that would have been created in future years have already been lost due to the stifling of innovation over the past eight years. Nothing can fix that. Rather interesting is that Obama is discussing a revival of the American innovation pipeline. He is discussing obstructions to productive job creation.

Another example are the jobs and exports made possible should be address global warning and other problem with new innovative products and industries. All hyped in the 'green' soundbyte. The hybrid car being an example of products available only from America had government continued to force the anti-innovative automakers to market existing innovations. Stifled hybrids is example of jobs lost AND how it now takes so long to create productive jobs. Jobs cannot be created by stifled innovations.

In short, the damage is so deep that it will take the next decade to restore the innovation pipeline to normal capacity so that jobs are created many years later. Just another example of why this economic damage will take so many years to correct.

There is no one magic example. Cited above in as short as possible are one in a long list of reasons why we have a recession and how long it will take to fix a problem that only we created.

[TheMercenary]

I'm working on it, but there are a few out there that will just not get along, no matter what I say or because of it. That is the way of the Cellar I guess.

[TheMercenary]

I agree that the education process needs investment but that will not turn us around economically in the short term. And a short term immediate fix is what we need to survive this current crisis.

Even the discussion of an infrastructure investment, rebuilding roads, broadband advancements, etc is not going to give us a short term fix. One of the biggest weaknesses I see is that the average worker is pretty lazy when it comes to manual labor, unlike the WPA programs that were all about manual labor and putting people to work. Not everyone will be able to participate in that program of work. The 50 year old line worker from a GM plant may not be so willing to grab a shovel and hit the road. Much of the infrastructure discussion is more of a feel good solution to make our daily lives better but I still don't see how that is going to jump start our economy. Growing the number of people who are on a government pay roll by 400,000 is not a solution.

[classicman]

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

It just seems like such a small area of the economy I don't see how it is going to jump start us back on the road to economic recovery. How does any of that address the real estate issue, mortgage crisis, or banking issues?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

I guess this is sort of what I was getting at. By Boortz:

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/01...ansparent.html

[DanaC]

Sounds like an interesting plan to me.

[zippyt]

[TheMercenary]

Those are frigging funny. Thanks for the laugh zippy!

[zippyt]

thats all I see when I read all this Bickering back and forth

[TheMercenary]

I don't care about that, it was still funny.

[TheMercenary]

Change! Yes We Can... ok, well maybe not.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a3YMkstD3JzA