View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Many antisemites attempt to cloak themselves under the allegedly more respectable mantle of antiZionism -- but their fraud is transparent. Frankly, I reckon antiZionist Jews to be completely out of touch with their own people's interests: it is manifest that statelessness is a very dangerous condition to be in in Europe. With a Jewish State around, abuse of Jews has much declined -- is that not historically demonstrated?

And what is really ironic, is they are doing to others similar things that were done to them for generations.

AntiZionist Jews are not out of touch. Why can't you recognize they have a right to their beliefs as well? That is the whole thing with you, it is your point of view, or none. All others are wrong. I reject that very narrow focus. There can be more than one right answer, more than one way to do things, or to look at things.

As for yelling about "show me where I said that," SP, need I tell you that when you write words, there are thoughts behind the words -- whether these thoughts are acknowledged consciously or not. Ideas birth words -- and it is not difficult to see what those ideas are. Nor is it very complicated in your case to see that your words leave a scent of the anti-Semite on you. Anti-Zionism is, well, the realm of two schools of thought, and I wouldn't give two bits for the both of them taken together: stupid, unpractical Jews who can't see their own people's best interest in the mortal world, and stupid and brutal bigotry against Jews from outsiders. I'd not ally myself with either silly bunch.

Wow. So you think you have some kind of magic mirror that allows you to look into my soul, and my brain, and know what I'm thinking? Then why am I bothering to open my mouth? In the same vein, it isn't hard at all to see where YOU are coming from. You have the same attitude bush had, egomaniac. You're always right. Your opinion is the only right one. Only your answers are the right ones for any problem. It must be really nice to be right all the time, and to know that you are so superior to the rest of us. Better watch out up there on that pedastal...

Here you show a mighty misreading of what I actually said -- you're listening too much to what you were unfortunate enough to think I said, instead: I did not say "first people," I said "the Jews were in before there was ever a Muslim." The Jews have a defensible prior claim, if you want to assign sacredness to who's there before whomever else. Stop kidding yourself, or I will both chew on you like a dog toy and insult your intelligence the while. You aren't winning this. Not ever.

How can you possibly know that? You can't. No one can. And what does Islam have to do with the people who live there? Islam is a religion. The people in the Middle East predate religion... ALL religion, including Judaism. Just because Judaism predates Islam does not mean the people who are there (and happen now to be Muslim) don't have roots that go back in time to before Israel's first incarnation.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

AntiZionist Jews are not out of touch. Why can't you recognize they have a right to their beliefs as well?

Because on the whole, their beliefs are destructive of Judaism. That seems to me too much wrongfulness. See above about moral relativism -- it cuts no ice.

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Wow. So you think you have some kind of magic mirror that allows you to look into my soul, and my brain, and know what I'm thinking? Then why am I bothering to open my mouth?

Magic? Why, none whatever. You write; I read, I get your ideas -- and thus, I see into your soul. Your ideas are exactly what you're thinking, no? While you're bothering to open your mouth, I'm bothering to look inside. And I've probably got twenty or thirty years of life's experiences on you, which does rather help to clarify the view.

Yes, I know what you're thinking. I read your posts.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Magic? Why, none whatever. You write; I read, I get your ideas -- and thus, I see into your soul.

You are the debbil

(runs and hides)

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

it is manifest that statelessness is a very dangerous condition to be in in Europe.

Anyone read "Bury Me Standing" by Isabel Fontescu?

The Roma are stateless, and atrocities against them are legalized and encouraged across most (if not all) European countries, from Germany to Russia.

They have been compared to Jews before Israel.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Aliantha, just why do you insist that somehow I have to be as rigid and bullheaded as Radar??

[Aliantha]

Just a simple question UG.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Just a simple question UG.

And my simple answer, as you're probably figuring, is "No." Now how 'bout my simple question?

It might be noticed that the overall pattern of these brawls is the Palestinians-in-charge-of-carrying-on-a-pointless-feud fire the first shot. Looks like picking a fight, no? Anybody think too highly of that? Anyone praise it? Anyone believe in it, or that good will come of it?

As an east coast liberal Zionist Jew, I am totally with UG on this one.

The creation of state of Israel was recognized by the international community with the partition of Palestine.

And the state of Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors for 50+ years and has succeeded with its more moderate Arab neighbors - Egypt and Jordan.

It sought a two state solution with the Palestinians in the 90s, only to have Arrafat kill the deal.

It sought to make peace with the Hamas by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza as a first step to a broader solution, only to be faced with 3 years of continuous rocket attacks into its southern cities.

Hamas exists solely to continue to wage war against Israel. It is at the very heart of its existence.

I would agree that Israel's response was heavy handed and did not help create an environment that could bring the parties to the negotiating table.

When Hamas is ready to recognize Israel's right to exist and disavow terrorism, I think they and the Palestinian people will find a willing partner.

And both sides will need to make hard choices and compromises.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Redux

As an east coast liberal Zionist Jew, I am totally with UG on this one.

The creation of state of Israel was recognized by the international community with the partition of Palestine.

And the state of Israel has attempted to make peace with its neighbors for 50+ years and has succeeded with its more moderate Arab neighbors - Egypt and Jordan.

It sought a two state solution with the Palestinians in the 90s, only to have Arrafat kill the deal.

It sought to make peace with the Hamas by unilaterally withdrawing from Gaza as a first step to a broader solution, only to be faced with 3 years of continuous rocket attacks into its southern cities.

Hamas exists solely to continue to wage war against Israel. It is at the very heart of its existence.

I would agree that Israel's response was heavy handed and did not help create an environment that could bring the parties to the negotiating table.

When Hamas is ready to recognize Israel's right to exist and disavow terrorism, I think they and the Palestinian people will find a willing partner.

And both sides will need to make hard choices and compromises.

I understand your point, and I agree with you up to a point. But both sides are at fault.

And to be clear, I remember reading an article, and seeing a documentary on PBS (maybe it was Frontline?) or somewhere back in the late 90s/early 2000s, where Clinton had said he was frustrated with Israel because they were the ones who were being unreasonable when he was trying to broker peace between them. And I know for a fact that Israel has broken many cease fires, as well as Hamas. So, while I understand your point of view, and I agree somewhat, it isn't the whole truth, and isn't completely accurate.

Yes, Hamas uses horrific fighting techniques, and I do not condone them. They are fighting an enemy that has unlimited resources, while they have very few. So they resort to techniques that most people think sickening. Yes, their thinking is very backwards, but I do understand how certain things (like oppression) can drive people to do the unthinkable. It's human nature, psychology.

And let's not forget that Israel used terrorism, and had terrorist organizations, well before the PLO was in existance. Yes, it's in the past, but their hands are not completely clean, like you make out. Terrorism is nothing new. It has been around for a very long time. You cannot win against terrorism fighting with conventional methods. Usually, it needs diplomacy, not weapons. (ftr, I always thought Britian should leave Ireland to the Irish, and that would have ended the actions of the IRA. In cases of terrorism, it is almost always a very strong country trying to force their will on a weaker one, in many cases using force to take over their country.)

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And to be clear, I remember reading an article, and seeing a documentary on PBS (maybe it was Frontline?) or somewhere back in the late 90s/early 2000s, where Clinton had said he was frustrated with Israel because they were the ones who were being unreasonable when he was trying to broker peace between them.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/.../kfojmhmhidey/

Bill Clinton held Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat responsible for the collapse of Middle East peace efforts, and told him so, the former president said in an interview published ahead of his new book’s release.

Clinton said that as he was preparing to leave the White House, Arafat thanked him for his work and called him a great man.

"I replied: 'I am not a great man. I am a failure, and you have made me one,'" Clinton said.

He said then-Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak was ready to make major concessions for peace in 2000 but Arafat was not able to "make the final jump from revolutionary to statesman … he just couldn’t bring himself to say yes".

[classicman]

Perhaps Hamas is just a willing pawn in a very ugly game.

Originally Posted by classicman

Perhaps Hamas is just a willing pawn in a very ugly game.

IMO, the Palestinian people are the pawn. Their fate is in their own hands.

A quote from Golda Meir says it all for me:

“We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

IMO, the Palestinian people are the pawn. Their fate is in their own hands.

A quote from Golda Meir says it all for me:

“We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”.

Well said.

[Aliantha]

My very personal opinion is that both sides are out of line and even though the Jewish nation might have a valid claim to the land, obviously someone else thinks they don't.

Thousands of years of fighting over it haven't managed to change a thing.

I don't think it's working for them. They all need to find a better answer, unfortunately, I don't believe either side really wants to when it's all said and done. I think this war has become a way of life and will never end. Debating the issue is pointless because words mean nothing compared to the number of lives lost over long held bitterness and hatred.

My point however was that if Israel can say, 'We were here first, so it's ours', then there are many other nations who have the same claim over land which has been taken from them and yet I don't see too many other countries jumping to their defense. Even my own country could have the same issue but we're not blowing each other up, even though we don't share the same religious beliefs. Not by a long shot.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Redux, let us continue: these ignorant people need to get punted around the playground a while until some fucking light breaks through. Poster DanaC has already left the fray with egg, or worse, on her face, for her non-enlightenment.