Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[Griff]

Suprisingly, we can't kill all the Arabs. If "we" insist on getting caught up in regional politics in the mid-east, we ought to know how our bullshit plays on the Arab street. Guys like Fisk will tell us, but if you prefer to ignore that part of the picture have at, your President is with you on that.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Griff

...we ought to know how our bullshit plays on the Arab street. Guys like Fisk will tell us, but if you prefer to ignore that part of the picture...

:"Guys like Fisk" aren't in the business of "telling us part of the picture". He's clearly not a journalist, he's an advocate and an activist: yet another combatant in the Infowar.

[Griff]

Fascinating attitude. That is exactly what the Democrats need to run against if they want to win in 2008. So far, they have not shown that they understand the world any better than the order imposing Bush, but the opportunity is there.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

And how many of those were delay fused?

I never mentioned anything about delay fused (show me). I said US and Israel military knew about the high rate of duds when using cluster bombs. Stop mudding water for once, MaggieL.

Artillery shells aren't your "three football field" aerial bombs. A little bit of retroactive Googling such as you've obviously done isn't going to be sufficient here.

Artillery and rockets are even less accurate than other form of delivery.

Also some support for your claim that Hezbollah has large missiles that can strike Tel Aviv would be nice. Of course Iran has them, but you're claiming they've been delivered in Lebanon, and survived?

Such a pitty you never seem to believe me MaggieL, maybe you believe The Jerusalem Post?

Or are they (and their crews) simply waiting to cross the Syrian border disguised as humanitarian relief?

Probably they're waiting for the US humanitarian relief to Israel.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

I never mentioned anything about delay fused.

Rich was, when he equated cluster bombs to a minefield. Cluster bombs, and clustered artillery shells aren't implicit evident of indiscriminate intent. Crudely guided missiles are; variations in thrust and more succeptibilty to wind make them a lot less accurate. Artillery shells aren't implicitly less accurate than a gravity bomb. But they do dispense differently and cover less area. Effective area and accuracy (measured as CEP) aren't even close to being the same thing.

Speaking of CEP, a Zelzal-2 might be fired in the general direction of Tel Aviv. But where would it land?

[JayMcGee]

doesn't matter where it lands - it will explode on impact and thus constitute no further danger to future visitors to that area.

OTH, the IDF are much more precise about where their munitions land, but are somewhat less sanguine about the immediate damage. A furtherance of their 'interdiction' policy, perhaps....

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Rich was, when he equated cluster bombs to a minefield. Cluster bombs, and clustered artillery shells aren't implicit evident of indiscriminate intent.

Well that just mocks the intelligence of everyone here. Since no Hezbollah were where those cluster bombs were dropped, then that is a legal target? Remember, even if the plane lucked out - dropped a cluster bomb where an unguided rocket was launched 20 minutes earlier, still, no enemy left to bomb. Just civilians or civilian property to target. AND pilots only had a general region - a wild guess - of where most rockets were launched. Pilots had no ground spotters - and MaggieL knows ground spotters were necessary to accurately target. Pilots could see neither a rocket launcher nor Hezbollah. Pilot often picked a general area - a likely target - and cluster bombed it. This even from Israeli pilots quoted by the BBC. MaggieL thinks everyone is so stupid as to call that accurate targeting. To be more indiscriminate, they must also bombing Israel.

Bombing was so indiscriminate as to even bomb cities in most northern Lebanon cities in Akkar province. Israeli pilots attacked Hezbollah hiding in cities in every Lebanese province. Clearly that also was not indiscriminate.

Israel leaders would then blame civilians for 'letting Hezbollah use their homes as rocket launching sites'. Tell us what a homeowner would do when armed troops arrived to launch a rocket anywhere towards Israel. And yet Israel justification for random cluster bombs was that civilians were supporting Hezbollah; letting Hezbollah use their neighborhoods as launching pad. That alone means bombing was targeted; not indiscriminate? MaggieL - do you love to insult everyone's intelligence with that reasoning? This post is that strongly worded because your claims do that much mock basic intelligence. You actually believe pilots could identify targets? Then you mock everyone.

MagggieL's soundbyte reasoning is bull once we add facts she routinely forgets. Clearly, in MaggieL's world, those pilots could see rocket launchers and those Hezbollah soldiers remaining for 20 minutes so that Israeli planes could attack them. World according to MaggieL - when only Likud Israeli extremists wear white hats.

Chinese soldiers are now removing cluster bombs from Lebanese civilian areas. Unexploded cluster bombs in fields and towns like a minefield. Officially it is not a minefield. Reality - no difference.

[Ibby]

So, tw, what would YOU propose that Israel do, instead?

[JayMcGee]

Nice ploy, Ibram, but.....


the onus is still on Israel to justify the OTT reaction to a common-place kidnapping of Israeli troops. (Forget the rockets - they happened later).

Dou you play chess? When you move kings' pawn forward in the standard opening, do you then overturn the board when your opponent refuses the standard reply?

That's what the IDF did - kicked over the chess-board.

[Ibby]

Ah, but this isn't chess. Israel's response WAS disproportionate, but what incentive did they have to be proportionate?

[JayMcGee]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Ah, but this isn't chess. Israel's response WAS disproportionate, but what incentive did they have to be proportionate?

what? I'll blow the shit out of them because I can?

was that a serious question? why should they be proportionate?

your logic leads to Armageddon.
.

[Ibby]

It's not MY logic, it's theirs. I'm all for proportion -- or even better, not getting in the fight in the first place. I argue both sides because I think both are wrong.

I think of this kind of like... a tough, streetwise stray dog getting his food dish taken by a trained attack dog, then picking a fight to get it back. Yes, the stray shouldnt've picked the fight, but he did, and the attack dog shouldnt tear the throat out of the stray, but he probably will. It's simply what they do.

[xoxoxoBruce]

So you keep walking by, stepping on my toes each time, and you think it would be disproportionate of me to jump up and beat the shit out of you?

I suggest you be more careful walking because you're in for a big disproportionate surprise.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

So, tw, what would YOU propose that Israel do, instead?

Israel had numerous and more intelligent options. For example, Israel could have done what so many previous and far more militant Prime Ministers have done: negotiate for release of two kidnapped soldiers. Problem solved. That was all anyone expected.

Or Israel could have done a complete opposite - move in with massive military force in that limited region south of the Latani River.

Israel did neither. Israel instead did what only the military naive would do. They attacked all Lebanese people in some silly (literally perverted) belief that if they attacked all of Lebanon, then the Lebanese army would attack Hezbollah.

As posted repeatedly, Israeli Air Force did indiscriminate attacks on anyone - including unjustified, numerous attacks on Beirut Airport - as if that too were a Hezbollah stronghold. They routinely attacked even well marked Red Cross and Red Crescent convoys - even attacked innocent civilians north and moving north of the Latani River. That fact is not deniable (although I expect UT to deny it).

Israel's own general was again promoting a failed agenda that did not work in Somaliland, WWII, or Vietnam.

Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone
Victory is not a matter of seizing territory, ... It is a matter of “consciousness”.

And so Israel - without even ground controllers - attacked targets all over Lebanon to somehow change Lebanese consciousness. Innocent civilians get attacked near where Hezbollah once was? Good. Change of consciousness. Attack cities in every Lebanese province - even most northern cities. Good. Change of consciousness. That is not how a logical and honest military man achieves strategic or tactical victory. And that is why Israel lost in a seventh invasion of Lebanon. Israel had plenty of options and yet took a most stupid military action. Isreal did not even get their two soliers back.

In direct contradiction to what MaggieL posts - and she knows better - Israeli warplane were not just attacking missile launchers. Freely using cluster bombs maybe in direct violation of conditions upon which the US provides those bombs. Israel was attacking unseen and estimated targets to 'change consciousness'. Killing Lebanese civilians even in most northern Akkar was justified because they were not attacking an enemy. Target was 'change consciousness' which means indiscriminate attacks on civilians is not only justified. It is necessary.

Even Sharon did not do anything so stupid and therefore got back his kidnapped soldiers. Sharon traded prisoners for soldiers. No problem. A well proven solution so easy, without pain, and involving no retaliatory attacks. Instead Israel still does not have their soldiers and has now recruited massive numbers of future terrorists to hate both Israel and the United States. Who was the dummy? Same military that thought 'changing consciousness' with air attacks would somehow win a war?

Ibram - the stupidity of Israel's actions should be obvious to everyone here. It should be obvious to everyone - and MaggieL even knows this - that Israel warplane could not tell innocent people from rocket launchers. Their orders were don't care. Even their targets all over Lebanon were 'change consciousness'. If Israel wanted a military solution, then Israel should have moved in full force, many infantry divisions, and been ready for about 1000 casualties. Military solutions are necessary because Israel will not even negotiate with an adversary - classic 'big dic' thinking. However, same mindset should also accept massive Israel dead because only the objective matters. Instead it was so much easier to attack Lebanese civilians to 'change consciousness'. Attack Arabs since they are all niggers anyway. Don't fool yourself. That attitude - encouraged by George Jr’s administration and by Christian extremist Zionists - is why more wars are necessary despite smarter options.

Ibram - not only do I provide multiple and far more intelligent options. I also defined the consequences of a pathetically stupid Israeli invasion - complete with no soldiers returned and recruiting of more smart people into the ranks of extremist. You tell me what was accomplished by indiscriminate bombing.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

doesn't matter where it lands

So...that would be indisciminate, then.

It *does* matter where it lands, if it misses Tel Aviv, then it hasn't "reached the city". ..and with a CEP measured in miles, that's what will happen.

If there are any Zelzal-2s left intact in Lebanon (if there were any to begin with, and there's considerable dispute about that) they were probably what the cluster bombs were used on; anti-materiel/anti-armor is what they're best at. Assuming first that they did ever cross the border and second weren't destroyed by the IDF, they still aren't available to Hezbollah apparently because they're dual-keyed, and can only be launched on command from the Iranian crews (of whom there aren't any in Lebanon, right?). It's the most implausible "plausible deniability" I've ever seen...the old shell game again: Hezbollah "has" missles but can't launch them...but if they *are* launched Iran will blame Hezbollah.

The Iranians won't launch now because if they did manage to hit anywhere near Tel Aviv, they'd trigger exactly the responses they're trying to deter in the first place: massive Israeli response directly aganst military targets in Iran, very likely including strikes against their nuclear facilities.

To deter a strike against the nuke facilities until Iran has weapons ready to go (and nobody really knows exactly how long that will actually be, including the Iranians), the Iranians want to keep that pistol to the head of Israel...if they even still have any Zelzal-2s in Lebanon, which is doubtful at best.

So Hezbollah doesn't have control of a weapon that would hit Tel Aviv...because if they did they'd use it. Which is why they're dual-keyed. It's not a matter of their intent, they just don't actually have the capability.

If North Korea manages to pull off a sucessful underground test of their design, I'd expect one or two of them to be covertly sold to Iran very quickly; NK needs the cash desparately and Iran has it. Iran's not dumb enough to buy warheads that have never been tested.

tw seems to think airports aren't military targets. Stuff like this is why they are.