Bush's Shrinking Safety Zone

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You keep not mentioning these attacks. It's like you don't know about them, or they don't count, or something. Maybe it's a filtering problem on your part, or maybe it's your lousy biased sources.

Those missile attacks are a threat like aggressive drivers on a highway. Unguided missiles are not a 'smoking gun'. Apparently some confuse trivial threats as if these were massive 155 mm artillery attacks. Need I again cite hundreds of ships sunk off the US East Coast - and that still was not sufficient to justify war? Grasping this concept - the 'smoking gun' -remains elusive to UT.

Meanwhile, basis of a negotiated settlement is currently found in the Arab League's seven points that even include Sheeba Farms.

Peripherals such as Syria are relevant to those so biased as to see evil even in Syria. Syria has no camel in this conflict. If Syria was so evil, then so was the US for arming and financing the IRA in Britain? As soon as one says Iran and Syria are involved, then I know George Jr brainwashing has taken hold again.

Neither Hezbollah nor Israel are victims here. Both are the only two combatants; both acting with 'big dic' mentalities. Victims are an innocent 90% of Lebanon who were outrightly attacked only because some Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. That was the action that turned daily 'face slapping' into a dangerous and undeclared war on innocent Lebanon civilians.

So why is Israel attacking Tripoli? Why has Israel attacked Tyre, Beirut, and Sidon - cities devoid of Hezbollah? My bias is against anyone driven blindly by their 'big dic' mentality. Only the morally bankrupt could justify attacks on innocent civilians in Beirut and Tripoli.

Which bring us to predictable bias. UT, when did you even cite Israel for doing wrong; being the aggressor; even arranging a massacre? Never. Your pro-Israeli bias has been excessively obvious and consistent. When Israel foolishly tries to solve problems with war, you encourage it. I am often appalled at your approval of violence as a solution for everything.

This Lebanon situation is a classic case. You even approve of intentionally aggressive and unjustified attacks on Lebanese - as if they are all evil. When did you criticize Israel for intentionally killing innocent Lebanese? I am so often appalled at your blind approval of anything Israel does when 50% of the time Israel is the reason for destruction of peace. In this case, Israel is so much the aggressor at to routinely kill innocent Lebanese - and declare that an attack on Hezbollah. To agree with them, in this case, is blatant bias; implies moral bankruptcy.

Even more embarrassing is that Israel's own government is so confused as to not even invade with ground troops. Instead Israel declared anyone in Lebanon as Hezbollah and attack everyone in Lebanon - including intentional attacks on well marked Red Cross ambulances. Not just Red Crescent. Israel also routinely attacks well marked Red Crosses. This because Israel does not have the balls to invade the border with ground troops - lose a few thousand soldiers attacking their only enemy.

[Undertoad]

Ah, take back the ready to go... they just turned around and the cease-fire is on.

[Undertoad]

That's the TW world - there are dead and wounded bodies, but no smoking gun.

See according to you, Israel has performed some sort of "original sin" which makes it Perfectly OK for Israel to be attacked for years and years. A few dead soldiers, a few missiles here and there - oh, THAT is not some sort of "big dic" situation. The other side can do whatever they like and it is never a "big dic" situation. They can openly declare their intent to wipe it off the map and it is just normal diplomacy to tw. No big dic here.

Bias? Only in the other fellow.

Bias in favor of modernity, the free world, or truth? Not permitted.

Bias against Islamic Fascism? I'm not going to finish this thought.

Other cities devoid of Hizbollah? REALLY? Is that what you believe? No Hizbollah in Beruit? Uh, are you sure about that? Iran and Syria not involved? The other day they CAPTURED IRANIAN SOLDIERS, did you miss it?

My friend you have failed to read up on this situation, and are just going on instinct.

You are UNINFORMED and SPEAKING FROM IGNORANCE. And THAT is the WORST form of bias.

You think this whole situation is analgous to the Palestinian situation. You apply the same thinking to Israel on this stuation as you do to the Pal situation. That is wrong.

If you can answer this without bringing up Al*m*n*m t*b*s, I'll respond by not asking for your definition of "massacre" which we can then apply to all future discussion and beat you over the head with it like a stick.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That's the TW world - there are dead and wounded bodies, but no smoking gun.

UT, for someone so bound and determined to show 'hurt Arab pictures' as a fraud, why do you have anything but bias.

When the number of dead Israelis approaches anywhere near to number of dead and totally innocent Lebanese, then we have a number greater than zero. One dead Israeli body - because of numbers of dead Lebanese - is zero. That is how reality without emotion views life in a war. The minute you worry about the so few harmed Israelis, then I know your bias is reason for your post.

Basically I am looking forward to a thousand dead Israelis and a thousand dead Hezbollah. Only then will anyone start talking peace. You are not. Your view is every dead Israeli justified something like ten dead Arabs.

A man pulls a knife to rob another. The second calls for three batteries of heavy artillery and levels the entire neighborhood. Those neighbors were guilty because they protected the robber? That is a justified response? No it is how one encourages Armageddon. UT. Others accused you of complaining about pictures only because they made Israel look bad. You never note the same counterfeit pictures that promote an Israeli position. You are that biased. You don't act honestly. You don't treat all parties with equal praise or equal contempt.

Final point. Israel started this when they attacked Beirut airport. Your response is to decline to comment because you cannot dispute it. Sometimes an Arab group starts the conflict. This time, Israel did. Israel is historically responsible for about 50% of the unjustified aggression. You can't deal with that reality due blind bias - suggesting a racist mindset.

At least in TW’s world, we have equal contempt for all aggressors – including the mental midget George Jr. UT worries about a few dead Israelis – and conveniently forgets about hundreds of dead American sailors off the US East Coast back in 1940. Yes I don’t give a damn about a few dead people. I instead care about the millions of living – which again is why I care about the smoking gun.

It was no accident that the people UT favors also called for and got the murder of Rabin - because they so hate peace.

[Undertoad]

You never note the same counterfeit pictures that promote an Israeli position.

Happy to.

Please direct me to one.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Happy to.

Please direct me to one.

So you are saying Isrealis are always honest and Arabs are always liars? You make my point.

Until you regard both sides as both good or both evil, well, then you remain biased. This is a conflict where every side has justification for their actions. Israelis under Likud remain as bad or worse than those other sides. Those who recognized this and were in position to do something could then create the Oslo Accords. When the claims of all sides were found justified, then peace almost happened.

Why did the Oslo Accords breakdown? Extremist even had to call for and create the murder of Rabin just so that logical thought - the ability to see all perspectives - was undermined. Peace was at hand only because there was no good and evil. There were only many conflicting perspective - and all were correct and justified. Your one-side bias in favor of Israel is is necessary to guarantee more war. It is the same attitude that Christian Zionists want to create Armageddon.

[Flint]

Perhaps here? This supposed comedy website featuring the freedom-hating Bob and David of Mr. Show fame (if you could call it that) lets slip a nasty secret... Scroll to the bottom of the page for this damning evidence: Copyright ©2006 Liberal Jew-Run Media . . .

Hebrew Box Office - indeed! I believe that answers your question.

[Undertoad]

"good" and "evil" are terms I don't recognize, tw.

Israelis, including Israeli arabs, are more likely to be honest than most people living in Arabic cultures, because they live in a modern culture where truth is considered more important than honor.

Here is the awesome backgrounder on shame-culture versus guilt-culture. Required reading to understand the whole thing. If you're lazy like me and don't want to read the whole thing, at least scroll down to the colored tables that summarize the differences.

I first pointed to it in this thread.

But don't ask me, just ask this guy.



Of course, if I'm wrong, you can surely point me to one single example of a doctored photo supporting the Israeli side.

[9th Engineer]

By tw:

...Christian Zionists want to create Armageddon.
...it is how one encourages Armageddon
...George Jr also wants Armageddon. Do you?
...George Jr even got you to view the world in 'black and white' / 'good and evil' AND to want Armageddon.
...Who are these extremists? Anti-humanity Israelis and Christian Zionists (also called American evangelicals) are some of those who want to destroy the world

Is this starting to weird out anyone else here?


Also,

...Viewing from an informed Israeli perspective
...That is the informed Israeli position.

when did tw move to Israel?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

"good" and "evil" are terms I don't recognize, tw.

Israelis, including Israeli arabs, are more likely to be honest than most people living in Arabic cultures, because they live in a modern culture where truth is considered more important than honor.

In a culture where crimes can cost a hand - Arabs are more dishonest? Bull. Dishonesty and lying is exists and equal on both sides. Both sides are equally human. Both sides now have equal disrespect for human life. That disrespect is fundamental to why conflict exists.

One need only watch how Israelis confiscate Palestinian land illegally and in outright violation of laws to appreicate how lying, criminal deceit, and other crimes against humanity are acceptable in Israel. After all, which nation arranged for and achieve the massacre of 5000 Palestinian women and children? And yet even in the Cellar, so many posters don't remember how corrupt Israel also is. Israelis are no different from their Arab peers which is why even the Oslo Accords were destroyed.

Remember why I could doubt those accusations of aluminum tubes and other claims of WMDs. Why I saw early on the lies of Iraq, outright and obvious violations of Military Science 101 by the George Jr administration, and the potential for civil war directly traceable to American ignorance. I grew up watching propaganda created. I demand the irrefutible fact. Facts remain that Israel is no more moral than so many of their Arab adversaries. They even routinely attack Red Cross and Red Cresent ambulances. This is the same Israel that murdered their own prime minister because he was actually negotiating peace. This is a moral Israel? Facts say otherwise. But as Rabin demonstrated, Israel can also be honest - if ....

Extremist Israelis will routinely lie - are the most immoral. Remember why the US and USSR came closest to nuclear war - because Israelis lied. But again, this is the same honest Israel that 'accidently' attacked USS Liberty. Eliminate the obvious biases, then Israelis as a nation are no more honest or moral than their Arab peers.

They even murdered their own prime minister only because he was working for peace - the Oslo Accords. What Arab nation did that? Many Israelis are so dishonest as to even deny that fact.

Israelis are about as dishonest and immoral as their Arab neighbors. History demonstrates that fact. Only personal biases would deny it.

[Undertoad]

Hey maybe you could check on Flickr for faked photos, there are a lot of photos on there.

[Undertoad]

All I ask is for one doctored or stage-directed photo.

It would be spectacular proof of your point, and a remarkable disproving of mine.

Just one.

[Hippikos]

Truth is the first victim in war, on all sides.

Extremist Israelis will routinely lie - are the most immoral. Remember why the US and USSR came closest to nuclear war - because Israelis lied. But again, this is the same honest Israel that 'accidently' attacked USS Liberty. Eliminate the obvious biases, then Israelis as a nation are no more honest or moral than their Arab peers.

Iraq war was directly caused by the Jewish cabal in the neocons (Feith, Abrams, Ledeen). AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) is the biggest example of that.

"I think the administration has had a rather militant and absolutist notion of how to achieve peace in the Middle East, laced with overtones of black-and-white morality," said former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski.

[tw]

Few countries have become so anti-Arab as the United States. From the Economist of 5 Aug 2006:

Opinion polls confirm that Americans are solidly on Israel's side. A USA Today/Gallup poll conducted on July 28th-30th showed that eight in ten Americans believed that Israel's action was justified—though a majority were worried about the scale of the action. A plurality (44%) thought that America was doing “about the right amount” to deal with the conflict. An earlier USA Today poll found that 53% put “a great deal” of the blame for the current crisis on Hizbullah, 39% put the blame on Iran and only 15% blamed Israel.

These numbers are what the administration mouthpieces have been telling Americans how to think - and are opposite of reality. Meanwhile, The Economist defined reasons for America's emotionally based response:

A Pew Global Attitudes survey taken between March and May found that 48% of Americans said that their sympathies lay with the Israelis; only 13% were sympathetic towards the Palestinians. By contrast, in Spain for example, 9% sympathised with the Israelis and 32% with the Palestinians. ...

Why is America so much more pro-Israeli than Europe? The most obvious answer lies in the power of two very visible political forces: the Israeli lobby (AIPAC) and the religious right. AIPAC, which has an annual budget of almost $50m, a staff of 200, 100,000 grassroots members and a decades-long history of wielding influence, is arguably the most powerful lobby in Washington, mightier even than the National Rifle Association.

“Thank God we have AIPAC, the greatest supporter and friend we have in the whole world,” says Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister. The lobby, which is the centrepiece of a co-ordinated body that includes pressure groups, think-tanks and fund-raising operations, produces voting statistics on congressmen that are carefully scrutinised by political donors. It also organises regular trips to Israel for congressmen and their staffs. (The Washington Post reports that Roy Blunt, the House majority whip, has been on four.)

The Christian right is also solidly behind Israel. White evangelicals are significantly more pro-Israeli than Americans in general; more than half of them say they strongly sympathise with Israel. (A third of the Americans who claim sympathy with Israel say that this stems from their religious beliefs.) Two in five Americans believe that Israel was given to the Jewish people by God, and one in three say that the creation of the state of Israel was a step towards the Second Coming.

Religious-right activists are trying to convert this latent sympathy into political support. John Hagee, a Texas televangelist who believes that supporting Israel is a “biblical imperative”, recently founded Christians United for Israel. Last month he brought 3,500 people from across the country to Washington to cheer Israel's war against Hizbullah. Mr Hagee's brigades held numerous meetings on Capitol Hill; both Mr Bush and Mr Olmert sent messages to his rally.

These pressure groups are clearly influential. Evangelical Christians make up about a quarter of the American electorate and are the bedrock of Mr Bush's support. Congressmen take on AIPAC at their peril. But they deal with well-heeled lobbies every day. And the power of the religious right can hardly explain why Democrats are so keen on Israel. Two other factors need to be considered: the war on Islamic radicalism, and deep cultural affinities between America and Israel.

Seeing themselves in Israel
Americans instinctively see events in the Middle East through the prism of September 11th 2001. They look at Hizbullah and Hamas with their Islamist slogans and masked faces and see the people who attacked America—and they look at Israeli citizens and see themselves. In America the “war on terror” is a fact of life, constantly reiterated. The sense that America is linked with Israel in a war against Islamist extremism is reinforced by Iranian statements about wiping Israel off the surface of the earth, and by the political advance of the Islamists of Hamas in Palestine.

But the biggest reason why Americans are so pro-Israel may be cultural. Americans see Israel as a plucky democracy in a sea of autocracies—a democracy that has every right to use force to defend itself. Europeans, on the other hand, see Israel as a reminder of the atavistic forces—from nationalism to militarism—that it has spent the post-war years trying to grow beyond.

Americans are staunch nationalists, much readier to contemplate the use of force than Europeans. A German Marshall Fund survey in 2005 found 42% of Americans strongly agreeing that “under some conditions, war is necessary to obtain justice” compared with just 11% of Europeans. A Pew survey found that the same proportion of Americans and Israelis believe in the use of pre-emptive force: 66%. Continental European figures were far lower.

Why are Americans so 'out of touch' with what the rest of the world knows? Propaganda is alive and well in America. I am amazed how many Americans somehow know what must be done and yet - this question again - don't even know the difference between Hezbollah and Hamas.

[Undertoad]

You really show your true colors when you say being pro-Israel is being anti-Arab.

I'm pro-Israel, pro-Lebanon, very anti-Hezbollah. A year ago I started the thread I love the Lebanese. A month later I wrote Free Lebanon.