Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards.

An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.

I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.

So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual? And don't respond with that choice crap, be very careful when you judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made.

That is one reason why my view of prisons will never be possible for a long time because one, it is more reasonable to go to a life of crime for some people than it is to follow the law and two, inner city society is a breeding group for criminal activity and that is institutionalized.

In order for my idea to reach its full potential, the two problems I have stated would have to be fixed first and that is why prisons are not my main concern right now.

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.

[DanaC]

As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.

Of course another thing you could do to tackle hopelsssness is not cram them into overcrowded cells, feed them poorly, and turn a blind eye to the bullying, phsyical intimidation, violence, humiliation and rape. You could also make sure the people guarding them aren't sadists. Many good people work in prisons, but many are also attracted to the job because its a power trip. Whatever their crime and whatever people think about their deserved punishment, the plain facts are that prisoners are one of society's most vulnerable groups. They are confined and under the direct power of other human beings 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If they are being subjected to bullying and physical attack, what really can they do?

It would probably also alleviate hopelessness if such policies as 'three strikes and you're out' were shoved up the arses of the people who dreamt them up.

[9th Engineer]

An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.

Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.

So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual?

Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.

judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made

I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.

Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.

Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

snip~
If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. ~snip

And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.

You basically have a scarlet letter to carry for the rest of your life. It is much harder to gain employment, the psychological effects of being in jail and being separated from friends and family for so long, and there are many smaller effects it has on a person. Many of the people that are in jail never had a great chance for employment opportunities in the first place and now it is even harder for them to get a job.

Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.

Even when it serves the individual's best interest to commit crime? I don't think you understand, or care, about the catch 22 a lot of people are in. They are fucked if they don't live a life of crime and if they don't want to live paycheck to paycheck with no stability or hope for the future, they have to break the law with extreme consequences.

I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.

Do you have any empathy for the catch 22 a lot of people are in?

Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.

Yes, I believe we can make small improvements but I'm guessing our idea of improvements are different.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.

I don't think that is the kind of religious they were thinking of because some religious books are being banned from jails.

http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/09/12/72163315

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.

Actually after editing law-books, manuals, and online resources for a living, compounded with getting to see things in my personal life as they play out...I would say I have absolutely no faith and not only that-no proof that the judicial system works. Excuse me, I mis-spoke, it only works for a small segment of the population...who it was fashioned to protect.
Ha Ha! One of my favorite comedians dropped out of pre-law. Had to get a sense of humor first I suppose.

[9th Engineer]

The three most terrible words in the english language: Trial By Jury

http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/letsgotoprison/

[DanaC]

I can offer a similar one:

Closed Tribunal

[DanaC]

I would say I have absolutely no faith and not only that-no proof that the judicial system works. Excuse me, I mis-spoke, it only works for a small segment of the population...who it was fashioned to protect.

I have a similar orientation to the way my country deals with asylum. It really doesn't take a lot of interraction with the asylum and appeals process to see that system is fundamentally and desperately flawed, and geared primarily to the denial of asylum. I'm not going to go into the details of why because i would just end up in a three page rant. But even the stuff that's put there to safeguard and provide for them during their wait (given it's ilegal for them to work) is deeply, and deliberately problematic. But most importantly, the bare faced denial of proof that in the judicial system would be considered sound, as a mechanism for denying asylum, just robs me of any faith in the system as a means of identifying refugees (the planet's most vulnerable group). And the routine use of fear as a way of keeping them off balance. I am deeply shamed by the way my country treats those who run to us. I've verged into a rant there...I'll try to contain it. I know for a fact that many asylum seekers are mentally and sometimes physically brutalised by the system they have to navigate. Far too many.

I get the impression, despite the raging arguments over illegal Mexican immigrants, that the USA does not treat refugees and desperate strangers so shamefully as my country does. Am I right or wrong in that impression?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I get the impression, despite the raging arguments over illegal Mexican immigrants, that the USA does not treat refugees and desperate strangers so shamefully as my country does. Am I right or wrong in that impression?

I live right by a Somalian neighborhood which is made up of a lot of immigrants/refugees to escape the violence and it is basically just segregated from the rest of the city. They don't really mess with other people's business and no one really messes with their's (at least from what I've seen, I could be way off).

It is labeled a bad neighborhood but if you go down the main street it is actually pretty cool, feels like an entirely different country.

[Cicero]

The topic of this thread is actually about an immigrant and her son. Not sure if that helps.
Not sure if she was targeted because of it.

[DanaC]

Oh I daresay many face problems, but I am talking about systemised brutality.

Example: In one of the holding centres where those who are considered a 'risk' in terms of vanishing into the underworld are housed (and some who've been marked for deportation) often for weeks or months at a time, it would appear at first glance to be a pretty reasonable place. OK, it has fences and bars, it's institutional in character and the inmates can't leave; but there are facilities within to create a self contained environment (a barbers, a recreation area etc).

What a first glance won't show you is the fact that the wardens routinely use 'physical restraint' and abusive, racist language. Inmates caught "Fence Watching" are deemed an escape risk and are put into the extra secure unit along with the suicide risks. Given that the compound is surrounded by fencing, the act of "Fence Watching" is very difficult to avoid: it basically consitutes looking in the direction of the fence for more than a few minutes. If you are outside, bored and staring into space, you could find yourself confined in, effectively a secure cell.

At nights the lights are left on in the cells/dorms. The inmates sleep with their blankets over their faces to block out the light. Because of a number of suicides, the guards check on all the inmates every half hour, throughout the night. They do this by pulling the blanket away and tapping, the inmates forehead with their forefinger...thereby waking them. Every half hour.

Now, the 'Fence Watching' thing is generally only applied to particular ethnic groups, though that's not how it's recorded. It's recorded in terms of particularly high escape risks, but they decide who is likely to be a high escape risk based on certain criteria: if you are a young Eastern European male (particularly if you are Romany ) then you are considered by the guards a high risk.

The blame for such 'failures' is laid at the door of those guarding the inmates. But there is a woeful lack of will, in the department which governs over them, to resolve the problem.

The half hourly wakenings is something a good friend of mine was subjected to for three and a half weeks. He is a very gentle and quiet man, who if you met him would seem much younger than his 31 years, but who has a kind of quiet grace. He was in that centre because of a mix up between his name and another similarly named asylum seeker who had run out of appeals. The wardens spoke to him like he was the worst kind of criminal and the most stupid child. He was pushed, shoved and strip searched after every visit he received from family, friends or solicitor. He had lost a great deal of weight when he came out and suffered from night terrors for months after. He then sank into a deep depression and ended up on anti-depressants and sleeping tablets.

He is an asylum seeker. If you had to guess, what do you imagine his previous experiences of police, prisons and government officials had hitherto been? Now, it was eventually sorted out and the mistake 'rectified'. He was released....and another man with a similar name was pulled in. Failed in his appeals, but nonetheless as likely as not to have unpleasant associations with police and government authority. He'll be woken up every half hour through the night, given sly punches when the guards know the cctv isn't covering that part of the corridor, and spoken to like he's utterly and fundamentally worthless. And he will be entirely at the mercy of people who have no sympathy for the terror and torture he may have experienced in other jails in another country.

If he's lucky the country he is supposed to be removed to will be deemed unsafe by both the Foreign Office and the Home Office and he will spend many months in the detention facility. If he's really lucky, the country is safe and he is not being returned into danger. If he's unlucky the Foreign Office and the Home Office will contradict each other and he may find himself returned to a very dangerous place, where his particular group are in particularly high danger (as happened with quite a few Iraqi refugees).

[DanaC]

Sorry....I did the ranting thing again huh?

[smurfalicious]

Dunbar rape suspect pleads guilty, gets 20 years

Monday, November 26, 2007

WEST PALM BEACH — A 16-year-old charged in the Dunbar Village gang rape agreed to spend 20 years in prison and testify against his friends to avoid three potential life sentences.

Jakaris Taylor was the first of four teenagers to accept a plea deal with prosecutors, but offers are on the table for the other three teenagers who are in jail awaiting trial. Taylor pleaded guilty to burglary and two counts of armed sexual battery while wearing a mask in the June 18 assault. He will get credit for the 130 days he already served in solitary confinement, according to the deal. He will also be branded a sexual predator. His lawyer, Chris Haddad, said Taylor is "a pretty bright kid" who wants a chance to have a family when he is released, likely in his early to mid-30s. "He has expressed remorse and regret for even being there," Haddad said. Assistant state attorney Lanna Belohlavek said the 35-year-old woman who was gang raped and forced to have sex with her 12-year-old son was consulted. And she was satisfied with the terms of the deal before it was signed on Monday, Belohlavek said.

"She's hoping by having this defendant testify against the others, she won't have to — nor will her son have to — go through the trauma of reliving it," Belohlavek said. But, she added, "They're willing to do what they need to do to see justice." Belohlavek said prosecutors considered Taylor's age of 15 at the time of attack, the lack of DNA evidence against him and his relatively limited role in the assault. His fingerprint was found inside the victim's apartment, while DNA linked other defendants to the home, Belohlavek said. She said she would not discuss plea deals involving other defendants unless they are approved and signed. A lawyer for one of the co-defendants said all four teenagers have been offered deals, and they're all different.

Robert Gershman said his client, Nathan Walker Jr., 17, was offered a plea that included more time in prison than Taylor was given. He declined to discuss specifics, and Walker has not made a decision. "You always have to consider it," he said.

Walker is scheduled for a court hearing today to discuss trial preparation including money for DNA tests, Gershman said.

The other defendants are Avion Lawson, 14, and Tommy Poindexter, 18. Up to six others involved in the attack have not been arrested.

According to Taylor's plea deal, his sentencing is deferred until Nov. 26 of next year to give him time to fulfill the terms of the agreement. If he does not testify truthfully against current or future defendants in the Dunbar case, the deal will be voided. Taylor gave a taped statement on Nov. 18, but it has not yet been made public.

Mayor Lois Frankel released a statement praising the state attorney's office and the police for doing a thorough investigation. She said she trusts the prosecutor's judgment that the deal was appropriate. The lurid details of the Dunbar Village attack turned the case into national news. The teenage attackers allegedly held the victims at gunpoint, poured chemicals on them and forced them to perform various sexual acts during three hours of torture. Taylor's mother could not be reached to talk about her son's fate because she is in Palm Beach County Jail. Jacqueline Minor, 34, has been incarcerated since Nov. 15 on $6,000 bond on charges of vehicle theft and driving on a suspended license. Reached Monday, Greg Lawson said his cousin Avion Lawson had heard Taylor was working out a deal and was mulling similar options.

"I don't even think they know what they (are) in. They don't know what all that time means. ... I would call that life," said Lawson, who was subpoenaed to be a witness in the case. "I'm worried about all of them." Staff writer Kathleen Chapman contributed to this story.

Interesting - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Would he have committed this crime if he had been raised in a different environment?

Sad - this kid who plead out will be out of jail in 20 years (possibly less) knowing nothing of life but how to be a better criminal when he gets out.

Even when it serves the individual's best interest to commit crime?

I'm curious, when is that, long-run?
I can't wait for this.