Al Franken...is this for real?

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Roughly half of the population holds opinions more in common with mine than with yours.

I notice that you did not specifically state half of the human population.

I'm willing to concede the rats and squirrels to you.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

And that suffces you for a response, does it? Going by previous examples, yes, you are happy with childish replies.

Rich, this should tell you something: you're out of good ideas. I'm not.

[classicman]

I need not read it again. I personally found your description ignorant, to tell you the truth. Why do they need to be described as such? Nevermind - they needn't.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Dear me, Bruce, why is it again you can't tell the Left, and fascist lovers everywhere, from "the country?" You kinda forgot a lot of the country is more like me on this one. The fascists, the Taliban, and the Idiot American Left -- they got the shaft all right. They are not "the country," but embarrassments to it.

Fanatic ranting FTW.

If the country was more like you, McCain would be president, and we'd be dropping things on Iran.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Hey, kid, it happened with George W. Bush, and good for us and all of humanity -- and yes, it was and is expensive, bearing the brunt of it as we did. Now we're (ill-advisedly) going to take a break from smashing nondemocracies, and that's a big lugie in the face for liberty lovers, and just fine with fascist-liking/-loving pus-lickers. I for one am not down with that.

Trying to call the guy who's right a "fanatic" is like trying to tell a priest he's too goody-goody... it just makes you look like a jerk.

I'm obsessed with liberty. I think liberty is so good for humans that it really ought to be obvious that no population should be without a large portion of it -- no population anywhere. You haven't anything like that to inspire your life, do you? You'd think a guy living in AZ would have a bit more bedrock sense in these matters. That's a state that likes its freedoms.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Hey, kid,

I wish.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

it happened with George W. Bush, and good for us and all of humanity -- and yes, it was and is expensive, bearing the brunt of it as we did. Now we're (ill-advisedly) going to take a break from smashing nondemocracies, and that's a big lugie in the face for liberty lovers, and just fine with fascist-liking/-loving pus-lickers. I for one am not down with that.

Yes, because George Washington and the founders were always raving like you (and the Taliban, come to think of it) about exporting ideology by force. Right?

You wouldn't know liberty if it bit you on your arse, son.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Trying to call the guy who's right a "fanatic" is like trying to tell a priest he's too goody-goody... it just makes you look like a jerk.

I call 'em the way I see 'em. You're a 100% fanatic screwball. Sorry about that.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I'm obsessed with liberty.

No, you're obsessed with jingoism.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I think liberty is so good for humans that it really ought to be obvious that no population should be without a large portion of it -- no population anywhere. You haven't anything like that to inspire your life, do you? You'd think a guy living in AZ would have a bit more bedrock sense in these matters. That's a state that likes its freedoms.

I sure do. I go shooting right off my back porch, for example.

But I don't think we should invade Togo or the UAR to make them do the same things. You aren't about exporting liberty, you're about exporting the United States. And these days, those can be two very different things.

[classicman]

MINNESOTA:

“Norm Coleman said Tuesday that the three judges hearing the U.S. Senate recount trial will have to ponder whether they'll be able to decide who won the election,” the Minneapolis Star Tribune reports. “Coleman … questioned whether the panel will be able to certify him or DFLer Al Franken as the candidate with more legitimate votes. ‘I think the court is going to have to reflect on that,’ Coleman said during a break in the trial, which is in its sixth week as he challenges recount results showing Franken ahead by 225 votes.”

“Coleman's team finished its side of the case on Monday -- the same day that Coleman attorney James Langdon wrote the judges to suggest that problems with the election were so serious that the panel may not be able to declare a winner. Franken's campaign began presenting its case on Tuesday in the St. Paul courtroom.”

The Pioneer Press adds, “Election law experts say ordering another election is not within the judges' purview -- a position strongly adopted by Franken's attorneys. ‘There is no precedent. There is no law. There is no statute. There is no rule. There is nothing in Minnesota that would suggest that one could simply suggest that one could simply start over again,’ said Franken attorney Marc Elias. He said the suggestion might reflect how the Coleman team believes their case went over the past six weeks. On Monday, the Republican's lawyers ‘provisionally’ rested their case, saying they wanted to give the court more information before resting completely.”

New DNC chairman Tim Kaine issued this statement responding to Coleman’s suggestion that it might be impossible to have a winner. “The people of Minnesota have spoken. It’s time for Norm Coleman to accept the voters’ decision, do what is best for his state and country and stop standing in the way of a Senator being seated. The stakes for our country are too high right now to suggest that the results of a democratic election, exhaustive recount, and legal proceedings be thrown out just because Norm Coleman doesn’t like the results.”

[Happy Monkey]

If he can stretch this and his appeals out for five years, he won't even need a do-over.

[classicman]

lol - Its really pathetic.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Well, TG, from my international experience, exporting "the United States" and exporting liberty differ only minutely, and the difference if any isn't enough to get crabby about. If you've been outside our borders and seen for yourself, I haven't heard about it.

What we are boils down to "the most successful at it." Being the best example, it's hardly sinful to export it also. It is not in any case a one-way deal.

You might take a read of Thomas P.M. Barnett, too. The guy's scary good and there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. It's even intelligently nonpartisan.

Jingoist? Nah. Therefore, why do you insist on connecting me with jingoism? I'd like to see your argument.

You seem to be siezed with the idea that fascist and communist ideologies are something other than mass miseries. This gross misunderstanding prevents you from coming down on the side of the good, does it not? Where is there anything in fascism, communism, autocracy, or oligarchy that makes them worthy of preservation? This is not fanaticism, this is morals.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Well, TG, from my international experience, exporting "the United States" and exporting liberty differ only minutely, and the difference if any isn't enough to get crabby about. If you've been outside our borders and seen for yourself, I haven't heard about it.

You're equating the United States with liberty. How very odd. Perhaps you can explain to my why that is, when my calls can be listened to, when American citizens get denied due process for years at a time, when I can't walk out and buy the machine gun of my choice, and when a man can get tossed in jail for a decade or three because he has chosen to use the wrong intoxicants?

Or maybe you mean "liberty for the right people. I mean, it's okay to dump on Gays, people with weird little religions, and people who just want to be left the hell alone in whatever mountainside compound they legally purchased? Am I losing the plot here? In short, you get liberty here, so long as you limit your freedom to being like everyone else?

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

What we are boils down to "the most successful at it." Being the best example, it's hardly sinful to export it also. It is not in any case a one-way deal.

Rubbish. We just yell the loudest. And then we drop bombs on people who never hurt us, to "liberate" them. After we "liberate" a few hundred thousand or a few million of them into greasy spots, we finish plundering and leave. What's really funny is that recently, we use foreign wars to plunder our OWN country, to hand it all over to no-bid contractors like the good folks at Halliburton. But that's what America is all about: Motherhood, apple pie, and bloodsucking contractors.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You might take a read of Thomas P.M. Barnett, too. The guy's scary good and there's a lot of interesting stuff in there. It's even intelligently nonpartisan.

What the hell? I'll give it a read.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Jingoist? Nah. Therefore, why do you insist on connecting me with jingoism? I'd like to see your argument.

Your own post: Our nation is the absolute best at freedom, so we can go jam our way of life down other peoples' throats. Because WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! Classic jingoism.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

You seem to be siezed with the idea that fascist and communist ideologies are something other than mass miseries.

And just where the hell did I say that? Oh, yeah. I didn't. You just made shit up. Please attempt to be more honest. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

This gross misunderstanding prevents you from coming down on the side of the good, does it not?

Depends what you call "good", I suppose.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Where is there anything in fascism, communism, autocracy, or oligarchy that makes them worthy of preservation? This is not fanaticism, this is morals.

That's a hell of a strawman you have there, sir. Where did you get it?

[Happy Monkey]

The ongoing Franken election saga.

[classicman]

I saw something about that from the AP. There is also a big issue with Coleman's data leak too.

[Happy Monkey]

I just finished reading this sumary of the leak.

[Undertoad]

I downloaded the data and looked at it in Excel, just to see if I could.