Merc - Wtf?

[BigV]

mostly sexobon, orthodoc, griff, some of my other fellow parents and others... whatever. just thinking out loud here.

I have kids a little older (and one younger) than Ibby. I love them dearly. I know that's a cliche, it's still true though. That love has been around since before they were born, and I don't think there's anything that will ever change it. How that love is expressed, that changes with the circumstances. How I feel at a given moment toward them, that changes too. What I expect from them, also changeable. What I do for them, what I say to them, those kinds of things vary. I want the best for them always. I love them always, regardless.

All I have as their parent is my credibility. I've worked all their lives to build my credibility, to earn and justify their trust in me. Mostly I've succeeded, but it hasn't been a uniformly upward trend. And it's not the same in every area. Some things they're sure I know a lot about, some things they're sure I know nothing about. When they were younger, I did a lot more telling about stuff. I love the socratic method of teaching and I use it a lot; it's my first tool out of my bag usually.

But there are lots of things I've found that don't work when I'm trying, in good faith, in love, to teach my kids. Corporal punishment, that was probably the first tool they grew out of. They're too big to spank into compliance or comprehension, been too big for a long time. Because I'm the Daddy, tha's why force of personality, that's... those days are gone too. The older they get, the more sophisticated their capacity to reason, the more I've needed to persuade in order to teach. Persuasion's the key.

When I look at what it takes to persuade, that's when I notice that all I have is my credibility. If they believe me, if they trust me, they'll accept what I say. Ironically, even if I'm wrong, they'll still believe me, but maybe only temporarily until they learn better. And that's all exactly what I have striven for as their parent *all along*. Think for yourself. Be able to assess the quality of what you're hearing for yourself. Now, if I have that credibility, I'll start off with 'points', but I'd better be proven right in their experience or I'll suffer a loss of credibility and I'll have a harder time telling/teaching/guiding/helping them in the future. That's sad for me as their Dad because I always want to help.

These older critical thinkers, with their ability to reason and argue, without that credibility, they can't be *told* anything. In fact, until they start the conversation by asking for my input, the conversation is just like that teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons "Waaaah Waaah Waaah Waaah". I'm reminded of the proverb "Teaching a student before they are ready is like hammering on cold iron."

I care for Ibby. Not like my child, I don't intend to patronize, but like a friend. She's entitled to her opinion about mercy, just as I am entitled to mine. I'm not interested in persuading her otherwise--we just disagree, we just have a different opinion about him. But when it comes to objective assessments, those are less open to interpretation.... anyhow, I'm rambling a bit. It is my observation that regarding most of the conversation here that is not directly about mercy, Ibby has vested more credibility in the sources he's privy to than he has vested in most of the posters here. We're hammering on cold iron.

[Lamplighter]

<snip>...Ibby has vested more credibility in the sources
he's privy to than he has vested in most of the posters here.
We're hammering on cold iron.

V, I've read through your post a few times, each time hoping to eventually reach your conclusion.
Either I still don't get your meaning, or I come to a totally different conclusion.

For my part, I feel Ibby has been extremely self-giving and open to everyone here
about the road she travels, the standards she holds, and she still remains open for discussion.
She has posted more than just her opinions, she has tried to educate.
So, I feel more connected, and think I know more about Ibby as a person, than I do about many other Dwellars.

From the posted attacks most recently, and in the past, I feel Ibby has done remarkable well.
Her posts have remained civil, and her use of "oppressor" has proved well founded.
She has stayed with us in the face of some highly insulting diatribes.
I doubt I could/would want to stay long in the face of such abusive behavior.

It makes me wonder if a few Dwellars have a perception that Ibby somehow is a hidden threat,
or is it a holdover from some earlier Drill Instructor type mocking their own sexuality,
or is it only a belief in some sort of superiority that allows them to impose their will on another.

I'm left with a question that I haven't yet answered.
What gives justification to "hammer" in the first place ?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

V, I've read through your post a few times, each time hoping to eventually reach your conclusion.
Either I still don't get your meaning, or I come to a totally different conclusion.

For my part, I feel Ibby has been extremely self-giving and open to everyone here
about the road she travels, the standards she holds, and she still remains open for discussion.
She has posted more than just her opinions, she has tried to educate.
So, I feel more connected, and think I know more about Ibby as a person, than I do about many other Dwellars.

From the posted attacks most recently, and in the past, I feel Ibby has done remarkable well.
Her posts have remained civil, and her use of "oppressor" has proved well founded.
She has stayed with us in the face of some highly insulting diatribes.
I doubt I could/would want to stay long in the face of such abusive behavior.

It makes me wonder if a few Dwellars have a perception that Ibby somehow is a hidden threat,
or is it a holdover from some earlier Drill Instructor type mocking their own sexuality,
or is it only a belief in some sort of superiority that allows them to impose their will on another.

I'm left with a question that I haven't yet answered.
What gives justification to "hammer" in the first place ?

Lamplighter--

first of all, the "hammering" is just a figure of speech, taken from the proverb I quoted, and taken from the tone of many of the posts addressed directly to Ibby. there's been plenty of hammering.

As for the justification to "hammer", I offer these reasons.

First of all, I'm entitled to express myself just as you are and she is. And we do all express ourselves around here. When that expression takes the tone of repeated, argumentative telling how to think and act, "hammering" is an apt description.

Next, speaking for myself, I felt some of the things Ibby said were wrong, and I wished to correct those things. For example, being intolerant of intolerance, but refusing to accept the idea such a position perpetuates the very thing she says she's trying to stamp out. Also, characterizing others, mercy in this case, as a one dimensional caricature, "an asshole" based on a subset of his words, while at the same time having a well established reputation for rejecting others' judgements of herself, claiming such labels were unfair characterizations. Another thing, rejecting the idea that allies are helpful, wtf? Making bigoted statements about the bigotry of others. Stuff like this.

So. It's hammering to the extent that our respective positions are in strong opposition to each other and it's justified because I care enough about Ibby and the subjects at hand to speak up.

As for the actual point I was trying to make, I don't think Ibby's interested in learning from me and others on these kinds of points. She's got a ton of input, and she's assessing it, and she's finding my input wanting by comparison. I can not shape her iron until she's ready.

[Lola Bunny]

*applauding BigV* that's what I've been thinking all along, well not the children part, the hitting on iron part. I was thinking of a different expression, but same meaning all the same.

[Aliantha]

Lamp, my understanding of what V is saying is that young people are at times able to be *influenced but at others not, and that at this point, Ibs is not particularly interested in hearing from people here, that the way he goes about getting his point across at times is not helpful to his cause. Sorry, I mean her. I guess I could have gone back and edited the he's to she's, but left it as it was simply because for me, it's still a conscious effort to refer to Ibs in the feminine. ftr, it makes no difference to me other than the inclusion of an extra consonant. How people live their lives is really up to them unless it infringes on my rights or freedom. Clearly Ibs choices don't, so she can do as she pleases. Maybe that's what's really getting on some people's nerves. The lady doth protest too much?! In any case, I too have not felt the need to respond in any way for months about Ibs sexuality simply because I don't see any point. Ibs is doing what she needs/wants to do and nothing I do or say is likely to change that at this stage because she is clearly not too interested in hearing my opinion on it or how she's going about things. Why waste my breath? It wont change what she does in any way. Maybe down the track things will change. Till then, I think most of us here feel that it's best to leave Ibs to her own devices and live or die by her own hand.

*I'm pretty sure he means as mature adults, giving children the benefit of your experiences in the world thanks to having been around longer. Trying to help them make less mistakes etc, or to find an easier path.

[Griff]

BigV's words ring true to me. Maybe its middle child syndrome, but I see Ibby organizing a life filled with intentional conflict and otherizing based on the words of professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change.. gotta run

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Griff

BigV's words ring true to me. Maybe its middle child syndrome, but I see Ibby organizing a life filled with intentional conflict and otherizing based on the words of professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change.. gotta run

I guess you are glad lil Pete didn't go to Bennington then?

[Griff]

If she chose Bennington, I'd have supported her in that. Every kid needs to find a place that serves her needs not her parent's. It didn't meet her academic needs. She's pretty conservative in her lifestyle choices, despite being very liberal politically. Her perception that the drug culture was pretty serious also turned her off.

[Undertoad]

professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change

They gettin' PAID and TENURED. If you got a scam, work it, that's what I always say.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They gettin' PAID and TENURED. If you got a scam, work it, that's what I always say.

yeah. and they don't know how good they got it.

Nearly every tenured prof I knew hated students and wished us all dead. And those were the good ones. the other ones just didn't give a good goddamn.

I had one prof FREAK OUT and nearly get violent when a kid fell asleep in class. No wait...that was a priest and it was high school. Never mind.

[DanaC]

The tenured professors in my uni are fucking awesome.

[DanaC]

Y'know I really don't like the anti-intellectual flavour of some of the comments in here.

'professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change'.

'professional thinkers' who have studied and worked and sacrificed to get where they are and to build the understanding they have. What we know of their thoughts are filtered through to us from the understanding of their student. None of us know whether Ibs' professors are/were 'out of touch' with ordinary people and language. Don't confuse someone's academic understanding of a particular subject with their wider understanding of humanity.

They're not locked in at night. They are people in the world just like anybody else.

[Aliantha]

Well, I wasn't specifically referring to that comment. As I said, some of his comments made me angry or upset at times also.

It's ok, I'm not angry. Tbh, I'm not sure why I keep posting cause he's never coming back here, so there's really no point. I think I'm just trying to point out that quite a number of us have been touched by Mercs concern and or generosity. I'm not sure if he'd need to buy something for everyone or maybe donate everything he owns to charity in order to be considered a good person, and even if he did, I suspect that some people would still not care for him, and that's ok too. *shrugs* For whatever reason, I came to know some good qualities in the man and I think it's a shame he doesn't let more people see that side of him. God knows why, but that's just the way it is I guess. If someone does something nice for you, it's kind of arseholish to just ignore that in favour of being pissed off about something that was said - probably ill considered and impetuous - some time in the past.

I'm just telling it from my very own perspective because people seem to wonder why I feel the way I do, so I'm not really trying to convince anyone. Just telling the story from my end.

[Spexxvet]

I'm interested to learn why those who now attack Ibby for her intolerance did not, to my recollection, ever attack merc for his intolerance.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I'm interested to learn why those who now attack Ibby for her intolerance did not, to my recollection, ever attack merc for his intolerance.

That's not true, he was confronted for some things he said, others were just ignored rather than acknowledging. Attacking him for his general attitude would be like attacking Zip for his spelling, or tw for his soliloquies, it's part of his identity here.
I think I have a handle on why, where he came from, how hard he worked, and the smart choices he made, to get his comfortable lifestyle. And from eating all those dead rugby players.

Ibby is another matter, he seems to be developing a habit of telling me what I can and cannot say, or even think. Hommie don't play dat.