Wild West Politics?

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Than do not try to draw comparisons between what people over there say in public and our folks say in public, as protected by our First Amendment rights as a comparison with radical Muslim extremists who killed a Cartoonist because he violated some BS line in the sand...

Well: I didn't make a comparison between what people say in public and the radical muslim extremists who killed a cartoonist. I was referring to the muslims who protested. Or are you saying they're all in it together and as such equally culpable for the violent end to that affair?

[DanaC]

Just as an aside: I am honestly, genuinely shocked at some of the stuff American politicians say in public. Ours can be nasty, but the only time I recall hearing violent rhetoric like that from an active politician, it was from an undercover expose of the British National Party, and the calls for violent response were being made to a private audience.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Just as an aside: I am honestly, genuinely shocked at some of the stuff American politicians say in public. Ours can be nasty, but the only time I recall hearing violent rhetoric like that from an active politician, it was from an undercover expose of the British National Party, and the calls for violent response were being made to a private audience.

And I am shocked that you folks get the protection of the Secrets Act...

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And I am shocked that you folks get the protection of the Secrets Act...

Oh for fuck's sake.

I know you are Merc, but what am I?

[sexobon]

[W]olf is going to have to move this thread to the Relationships forum what with all this flirting going on.

[DanaC]

This was an [eta]. but it turned into an essay so I am throwing it onto a different post :P

Right: this has started to get unpleasant. It is not always necessary to defend your country. You can throw what you like at me about ours, and if it seems a fair comment I'll agree with it. Is it shocking that we have the official secrets act? Damn right it is. Is it to be expected in a country like Britain? Alas, I think it's a fairly predictable lack of transparency. I personally don't find it shocking as such: it is how it has always been. That is what my country is like. Partially free. Partially in hoc to a born aristocracy who own all but a fraction of the land, and people the benches of both our political houses, and on both sides of the great political divide. Our governance, our intelligence services, our judicial system, law makers and law keepers, and most of the money sit with a small, but very powerful group of people and families. Despite our moves towards classlessness and social mobility, there is still a very authoritarian streak to our country, and I am not speaking of the socialist element of our politics. The authoritarian streak is much older, and much deeper than that. It also tends to sit more comfortably with the right of our political spectrum than the left: makes sense if you consider the origins of our political spectrum, as compared to your own.

We have a phrase in Britain, I don't know if it is ever used in America, but I have always thought of it as a British phrase: The men in grey suits. Say that phrase to any Brit and they'll know exactly what you mean. It is how our politics works. Unlike in the US, when the administration changes hands in an election, the civil servants who service the political machine remain in post. They provide the continuity.

When I say i am shocked by the violent rhetoric in American politics, I am talking about what appears to be a change in tone from the way it used to be, and from the way I expected it would be. I am not being flippant when I say I expected better. For all its flaws, the US political system has at its core a level of freedom that doesn't exist within ours. We still have Lords and Bishops sitting in our upper house. Some of the Lords are still in hereditary seats. The protection of that freedom is something that has often been a source of disagreement, misunderstanding, and cultural confusion amongst the various contingents of the Cellar. There are times whne that protection seems to lead to decisions that seem daft to an outsider like me. And there are times when it looks downright magnificent. But the one thing that seemed clear, was that freedom of expression, and the political freedom that implies, would always be defended, even ad absurdum (to an outsider:P)

To me, the introduction of this more violent edge to the political process in America seems a fundamental attack on those freedoms. More fundamental than any wiretapped phone, or hacked email account.

Do you really look at what is happening and not feel worry?

[skysidhe]

Originally Posted by DanaC

This was an [eta]. but it turned into an essay so I am throwing it onto a different post :P

Right: this has started to get unpleasant. It is not always necessary to defend your country. You can throw what you like at me about ours, and if it seems a fair comment I'll agree with it. Is it shocking that we have the official secrets act? Damn right it is. Is it to be expected in a country like Britain? Alas, I think it's a fairly predictable lack of transparency. I personally don't find it shocking as such: it is how it has always been. That is what my country is like. Partially free. Partially in hoc to a born aristocracy who own all but a fraction of the land, and people the benches of both our political houses, and on both sides of the great political divide. Our governance, our intelligence services, our judicial system, law makers and law keepers, and most of the money sit with a small, but very powerful group of people and families. Despite our moves towards classlessness and social mobility, there is still a very authoritarian streak to our country, and I am not speaking of the socialist element of our politics. The authoritarian streak is much older, and much deeper than that. It also tends to sit more comfortably with the right of our political spectrum than the left: makes sense if you consider the origins of our political spectrum, as compared to your own.

We have a phrase in Britain, I don't know if it is ever used in America, but I have always thought of it as a British phrase: The men in grey suits. Say that phrase to any Brit and they'll know exactly what you mean. It is how our politics works. Unlike in the US, when the administration changes hands in an election, the civil servants who service the political machine remain in post. They provide the continuity.

When I say i am shocked by the violent rhetoric in American politics, I am talking about what appears to be a change in tone from the way it used to be, and from the way I expected it would be. I am not being flippant when I say I expected better. For all its flaws, the US political system has at its core a level of freedom that doesn't exist within ours. We still have Lords and Bishops sitting in our upper house. Some of the Lords are still in hereditary seats. The protection of that freedom is something that has often been a source of disagreement, misunderstanding, and cultural confusion amongst the various contingents of the Cellar. There are times whne that protection seems to lead to decisions that seem daft to an outsider like me. And there are times when it looks downright magnificent. But the one thing that seemed clear, was that freedom of expression, and the political freedom that implies, would always be defended, even ad absurdum (to an outsider:P)

To me, the introduction of this more violent edge to the political process in America seems a fundamental attack on those freedoms. More fundamental than any wiretapped phone, or hacked email account.

Do you really look at what is happening and not feel worry?

I don't know whether to applaud or mention you missed saying," stick that in your pipe and smoke it." ( no offense to Merc) so I'll do both

I really feel that is the awesome-st post I have ever read.

oh and btw....just for comic relief... * whispers* Here it's [the men in black.]

[tw]

Originally Posted by DanaC

When I say i am shocked by the violent rhetoric in American politics, I am talking about what appears to be a change in tone from the way it used to be, and from the way I expected it would be.

Even a decade ago, I so strongly warned to overseas Cellar Dwellers of this new tone in America. That anyone overseas would not see. A tone that justified Mission Accomplished even when facts said otherwise.

You would have no idea how routine this hate is aired daily. How righteous these people are told to be using icon enemies that rally the troops - including Hillary Clinton and bin Laden.

So much of what Limbaugh says is found in posts even from our extremists. Underlying mockery, cheapshots, and contempt is similar to what Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc promote. Hate no different than that promoted by religion in the Spanish Inquisition and Crusades. Hate so deeply embedded that they do not even see it as hate. Instead they regard it as a righteous cause.

Palin is now denying that hate. As if putting Congressmen in the crosshairs is not what extremists promote. Hate is the underlying force that especially inspires the simplest of supporters. It is preached constantly on talk radio and Fox News. Do you have anything like that in Europe now that Radio Moscow is gone?

Worry is me when I saw how many were so easily manipulate by lies about Saddam's WMDs. Since then, the rhetoric and lies have slowly become even more rabid. Hate so deeply embedded that they do not even regard it as hate.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

snip...That is what my country is like. Partially free. Partially in hoc to a born aristocracy who own all but a fraction of the land, and people the benches of both our political houses, and on both sides of the great political divide. Our governance, our intelligence services, our judicial system, law makers and law keepers, and most of the money sit with a small, but very powerful group of people and families... snip

It's always been that way here, Dana, but it was sort of kept under wraps, an open secret that was only discussed in boring political tracts. For all the freedoms we extol, the real power, the important decisions, were always made by the insiders. In the last 20 years the money/power cadre has become more brazen, more visible, but this whole left/right wing, dog & pony show, is just to distract the peons, and doesn't affect the real power brokers.

Oh and when the control shifts parties, 99.99% of the civil servants stay right where they are.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's always been that way here, Dana, but it was sort of kept under wraps, an open secret that was only discussed in boring political tracts. For all the freedoms we extol, the real power, the important decisions, were always made by the insiders. In the last 20 years the money/power cadre has become more brazen, more visible, but this whole left/right wing, dog & pony show, is just to distract the peons, and doesn't affect the real power brokers.
.

I always knew there was an element of that. But I didn't think it was as entrenched as it is in our system. I began to get an inkling of it during the Bush years of course.

[Lamplighter]

Yesterday there were two political speeches based on the Tuscon shooting.

Here is Sarah Palin's video: (7+ minutes) from CNN



Here is President Obama's: (34+ minutes) from PBS

[Nirvana]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out who the hate mongers are ...

[glatt]

Obama's was on in the background while I was surfing the internet. I was half listening. I mostly didn't like the tone. Too much like a pep rally, and not enough like a serious memorial. Mostly it was the crowd's fault. They were awfully excited. I wonder how often Presidents have visited Tucson?

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I always knew there was an element of that. But I didn't think it was as entrenched as it is in our system. I began to get an inkling of it during the Bush years of course.

Your previous post was very good. I am glad that you noted when the majority of the evilness in our political process started, in the Bush years. And here we are.

[Sheldonrs]

I do not condone violence, not even upon people I hate.
However, when certain people die of natural causes, "When that day comes I shall futterwacken... vigorously."