Berkeley City Council Doing Its Anti-Democracy Bit

[Radar]

American soldiers are only for defending America. If they are sent elsewhere with guns, especially if they use the guns (even if they were shot at first for being in someone else's country) it is war.

[Undertoad]

So they can't be sent to defend a US base, in an allied country, without a declaration of war by Congress.

Can they defend an Embassy?

[Radar]

There should be no American military bases in any country but our own. Embassies on the other hand are U.S. property. Having soldiers defend U.S. property is not going to war. It becomes war when U.S. property or those soldiers are attacked.

[Undertoad]

Without Congressional declaration?

Are the Embassies allowed to be the size of military bases?

[Radar]

It becomes an illegal war without a Congressional declaration. With a congressional declaration, it becomes a legitimate and legal war.

An embassy should only be large enough for a consular office, and an ambassador with staff. No more, no less. But I don't know of any hard or fast rule on the size. There should be no more than a dozen members of the U.S. military defending the facility so people don't "accidentally" confuse it with a military base.

[Undertoad]

Is there a period of occupation, post-war, during when the defeated country cannot defend itself but must be defended by US troops, yet where the country is not at war?

[Radar]

How long is that period supposed to be? We've been in Korea, Japan, and Germany constantly for the last 6 decades. Also, we don't owe "defense" to any country but our own, especially a country that attacked ours. In the case of Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc. they didn't attack America first. In each of those cases, America injected itself into the battles that other nations were having. In these cases, America's involvement was not required and had unfortunate and unintended results.

If a country can't defend itself after starting a war with America, we don't owe them any defense at all. If they didn't start a war with America, we owe them a defense, and an apology for attacking them in the first place.

[deadbeater]

Originally Posted by Radar

How long is that period supposed to be? We've been in Korea, Japan, and Germany constantly for the last 6 decades. Also, we don't owe "defense" to any country but our own, especially a country that attacked ours. In the case of Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Bosnia, Afghanistan, etc. they didn't attack America first. In each of those cases, America injected itself into the battles that other nations were having. In these cases, America's involvement was not required and had unfortunate and unintended results.

If a country can't defend itself after starting a war with America, we don't owe them any defense at all. If they didn't start a war with America, we owe them a defense, and an apology for attacking them in the first place.

Germany's U-boats attacked US ships, albeit stored with supplies going to allies. And Japan did attack the Pacific Fleet stationed in Pearl Harbor, Honolulu, Hawaii on 7 December 1941.

[Undertoad]

Is there a period of occupation, post-war, during when the defeated country cannot defend itself but must be defended by US troops, yet where the country is not at war?

[Radar]

Before December 7th 1941, America blocked shipments of oil and steel from the Netherlands to Japan who were fighting the Chinese. This was an act of war, and America knew Japan would retaliate with Force. In fact, America knew Japan was going to attack on December 7th 1941, and allowed it to happen. Of course America sent all of its carriers, and newer ships out on "maneuvers" the day before.

German U-Boats attacked during World War 1, and that was only after America violated a neutrality agreement by shipping weapons to England in a cruise ship made from a converted war ship that still had several large guns mounted on it.

Leading up to the sinking of the Lucitania, U-Boats would always fire a warning shot across the bow of a boat, search it to see if it had supplies bound for England, and they'd allow people to evacuate from any ship they were going to sink. This stopped when Edward Mandell House (Woodrow Wilson's Closest Advisor) told American ships to ram any German U-Boat that fired a warning shot. Several U-Boats were lost, so they stopped giving a warning shot.

A single torpedo was shot at the Lusitania and it blew the entire ship in half. This was impossible except for the fact that the entire belly of the ship was loaded with munitions bound for England. Germany had every right to sink the ship.

So in the case of Germany in World War I, Germany was provoked by the United States. In fact America had also sent American ships between American and English ships that were fighting in an effort to give America an excuse to get into the war. Some Americans were losing a lot of money they had invested in England, and they wanted America to get involved even though America had always remained neutral in the disputes of other nations and used our military only when attacked.

Japan was also provoked into attacking America because FDR wanted to get into the war and he knew Hitler was too smart to attack America. He knew if he provoked Hirohito into an attack, we'd go to war with Japan and by extension, we'd go to war with their allies like Germany too.

In fact it was America's illegal involvement in WWI and the following unfair "Treaty of Versailles" which blamed WWI on Germany despite the fact that it was Austria who started the war. France was still angry about losing land to Germany during the Franco-Prussian War and France pressured America into pushing harsh penalties onto for Germany including reparations to the other nations involved in WWI. When the depression hit the world, it hit Germany the hardest because they had their lands and resources stripped away and were forced to pay reparations while they were starving. This made the German people so desperate, they even listed to the Nazi party. They wanted to blame anyone, and they said, "Let's blame the Jews. They've got money".

Without these harsh conditions, it's unlikely Hitler or the Nazi Party would have been taken seriously and Hitler never would have become Chancellor.


http://hubpages.com/hub/World-War-1-...g-of-Lusitania

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/....cfm?pageid=49

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Is there a period of occupation, post-war, during when the defeated country cannot defend itself but must be defended by US troops, yet where the country is not at war?

Of course not.

[Undertoad]

But during those times, the other country can't possibly be said to be at war with us.

[Radar]

Whether or not a country is at war with us is irrelevant. The purpose, role, and scope of the U.S. military is defined and limited by the U.S. Constitution as being solely for the defense of American soil and ships.

It's not here to defend nations we've defeated in battle. It's not here to start battles against nations that don't pose any threat to ours. It's not even here to get involved in the squabbles or disputes of our allies.

[Undertoad]

So during the after-point we are at war, but the country we are at war with it not at war with us. Fine. At what point are we no longer at war?

[Radar]

I'm not sure I understand what you're attempting to ask.

If a we are at war with a country, they are by definition at war with us. Generally speaking a war is over when either we, or the country we are at war with concedes defeat and surrenders.

Assuming we are in a legitimate and legal war... meaning we were attacked first and the country we are at war with is the country that attacked us...and congress has made a formal declaration of war (not granting "authority" to the president to make war or granting the government to use force because another country violated a UN resolution)...

If they surrender the war is over. We pack up our stuff and go home, or if the war happened here, we send them packing.