Hot takes on the Democratic frontrunners - Page 13

Undertoad · 11-13-2019, 03:40 PM

I support Andy Ngo.

Flint · 11-13-2019, 04:29 PM

There are very bad people in the US who plan intentional acts of political violence. They identify their victims and share their information online. They plan and carry out acts of violence to intimidate those with different political beliefs.

Andy Ngo is one of those people. He is involved with identifying the targets, planning the violence, organizing the attacks, and yes, he is there when it happens. And yes, sometimes he stands too close to the violence which he himself is complicit in organizing.

Andy Ngo deals in half-truths, deceptively edited videos, and irresistibly worldview-confirming narratives. If you have reason to believe his "See! I told you so!" message, it's just so delicious.

Luce · 11-13-2019, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

There are very bad people in the US who plan intentional acts of political violence. They identify their victims and share their information online. They plan and carry out acts of violence to intimidate those with different political beliefs.

Andy Ngo is one of those people. He is involved with identifying the targets, planning the violence, organizing the attacks, and yes, he is there when it happens. And yes, sometimes he stands too close to the violence which he himself is complicit in organizing.

Andy Ngo deals in half-truths, deceptively edited videos, and irresistibly worldview-confirming narratives. If you have reason to believe his "See! I told you so!" message, it's just so delicious.

This is one of those things where neither side is going to agree with the other. I share your opinion of Ngo, but nothing you or I say will bring Undertoad to our side of the table, nor could he convince me to come to his side of the table.

This is where America is right now. It's the political reality that we exist in, and a political reality is still reality.

Undertoad · 11-13-2019, 04:43 PM

Yes, it is what it is.

Flint · 11-13-2019, 04:46 PM

I agree.

There is a subjective area.

I would suggest, though, that when someone (and I'm not saying anyone here) takes a position that requires you to believe, "Snopes is lying!" or "Wikipedia is lying!" it doesn't help us come together on a common set of facts.

Luce · 11-13-2019, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I agree.

There is a subjective area.

I would suggest, though, that when someone (and I'm not saying anyone here) takes a position that requires you to believe, "Snopes is lying!" or "Wikipedia is lying!" it doesn't help us come together on a common set of facts.

And THAT is the hilariously unforeseen end result of the information era. We have gone beyond misinformation to some ridiculous meta level of misinformation about misinformation, where nobody can find common ground, because all opposing sources of information have been labeled "garbage" by the people in the opposing tribe.

This isn't the future I was promised. Nobody, not even Philip K Dick, could have foreseen this sideshow.

Undertoad · 11-14-2019, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I would suggest, though, that when someone (and I'm not saying anyone here) takes a position that requires you to believe, "Snopes is lying!" or "Wikipedia is lying!" it doesn't help us come together on a common set of facts.

Jordan Hall's Situational Analyses* tease out what is happening: far larger than politics, it's partly a battle between how sense-making will happen into the future. It's between a "blue church" which represents the sense-making of institutions, and a "red faith" which represents the sense-making of "decentralized collective intelligence".

The institutions usually get things right, but are subject to failure. One example of how institutions failed was in the Covington Catholic kids incident, where the actual video proved out that the institutional narrative was mostly wrong. The institutional narrative was boxed in and accepted the first, edited video at its face.

In the case of Andy Ngo, I have followed a bit of both - the Portland Mercury, which presented the institutional narrative; and two sense-making videos out of the decentralized intelligence, which analyze the Ngo controversy. One from each side: the progressive David Pakman video dragging Ngo, and the Sargon of Akkad video "Andy Ngo Did Nothing Wrong" which addresses the Pakman video directly. I realize it's fruitless to suggest anyone else take this on; I'm just saying, I did; and there's my due diligence, if it counts for anything... not trying to prove anything

~ And as always, I could easily be wrong... I often am ~

*somehow i am too busy to link but not busy enough not to write all this shit

Flint · 11-14-2019, 12:18 PM

"blue church" = institutional ?
"red faith" = decentralized ?

I think the colors are reversed. If red means what red means, red has lost the culture war and is pissed about it. There isn't an "institution" of "Hollywood elites" and "activist judges" it's literally the decentralized opinions of the majority of individual Americans. For example, we collectively, de-centrally oppose racism despite the institution of racism still existing.

I wish he'd just taken the "colors" out of this.

Luce · 11-14-2019, 12:27 PM

I am not prepared to take Sargon of Akkad seriously.

Undertoad · 11-13-2019, 04:52 PM

I'm not in any tribe. I don't even vote

Luce · 11-13-2019, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I'm not in any tribe. I don't even vote

If so, you are the only person I have ever met who isn't, to one degree or another.

sexobon · 11-13-2019, 05:06 PM

UT isn't in a tribe; because, he IS a tribe … a Tribe of One!

Be all that you can be, UT.

Undertoad · 11-13-2019, 05:44 PM

I'm currently a 0,-3 on the political compass (0 left-right, -3 authoritarian/libertarian)

My tribe is called heterodoxy

Griff · 11-13-2019, 06:40 PM

Still a lefty libertarian

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.03

Urbane Guerrilla · 11-15-2019, 01:33 AM

I'm a Larry Elder fan; I'm not prepared to take "institutional racism" seriously.

The Left, in its perennial battle to divide and then rule, thinks too much about, and assigns too much weight to, ah... complexion. This thinking is superstition in action.

The Left, and the properly-called illiberals, will never be liberated from race-based thinking and its attendant foibles until they cease to think about ... complexion... at all.

If you hold your breath waiting for that, you'll have an interesting bluish color-problem. "Are you bluish? You look bluish..."

11-13-2019, 04:29 PM	#2
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	There are very bad people in the US who plan intentional acts of political violence. They identify their victims and share their information online. They plan and carry out acts of violence to intimidate those with different political beliefs. Andy Ngo is one of those people. He is involved with identifying the targets, planning the violence, organizing the attacks, and yes, he is there when it happens. And yes, sometimes he stands too close to the violence which he himself is complicit in organizing. Andy Ngo deals in half-truths, deceptively edited videos, and irresistibly worldview-confirming narratives. If you have reason to believe his "See! I told you so!" message, it's just so delicious. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-13-2019, 04:46 PM	#5
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I agree. There is a subjective area. I would suggest, though, that when someone (and I'm not saying anyone here) takes a position that requires you to believe, "Snopes is lying!" or "Wikipedia is lying!" it doesn't help us come together on a common set of facts. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-14-2019, 12:18 PM	#8
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	"blue church" = institutional ? "red faith" = decentralized ? I think the colors are reversed. If red means what red means, red has lost the culture war and is pissed about it. There isn't an "institution" of "Hollywood elites" and "activist judges" it's literally the decentralized opinions of the majority of individual Americans. For example, we collectively, de-centrally oppose racism despite the institution of racism still existing. I wish he'd just taken the "colors" out of this. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

11-13-2019, 06:40 PM	#14
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Still a lefty libertarian Economic Left/Right: -4.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.03 __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

11-15-2019, 01:33 AM	#15
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I'm a Larry Elder fan; I'm not prepared to take "institutional racism" seriously. The Left, in its perennial battle to divide and then rule, thinks too much about, and assigns too much weight to, ah... complexion. This thinking is superstition in action. The Left, and the properly-called illiberals, will never be liberated from race-based thinking and its attendant foibles until they cease to think about ... complexion... at all. If you hold your breath waiting for that, you'll have an interesting bluish color-problem. "Are you bluish? You look bluish..." __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

11-13-2019, 03:40 PM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I support Andy Ngo.

11-13-2019, 04:43 PM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Yes, it is what it is.

11-14-2019, 12:27 PM	#9
Luce Weaponized Funk Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Arizona Posts: 446	I am not prepared to take Sargon of Akkad seriously.

11-13-2019, 04:52 PM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I'm not in any tribe. I don't even vote

11-13-2019, 05:06 PM	#12
sexobon I love it when a plan comes together. Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 9,793	UT isn't in a tribe; because, he IS a tribe … a Tribe of One! Be all that you can be, UT.

11-13-2019, 05:44 PM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I'm currently a 0,-3 on the political compass (0 left-right, -3 authoritarian/libertarian) My tribe is called heterodoxy

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