Wall Street Protests

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Different kind of wealth sir;

However you measure it, I think my point still holds. Some people get rich and drag others up with them; some get rich at the expense of others.

(interesting aside....)
A few months ago I saw a graph on TV, but was unable to find it on the net to post. It was global GDP over time, done in columns per century.
All of history up until 1900 - the Greeks, Romans, Chinese, Indians, Arabs, European colonial era, British industrialism etc etc - add up to 25% of all human economic activity ever.
The 20th century had 50%! In just 100 years we did twice as much business as in the last 10,000.
The other 25% has taken place in the last ten years!!! And it is still accelerating!

Even allowing for the huge increase in population, this is staggering. Mostly, it's bloody awesome. There are more people further from poverty than ever before.
It is also deeply worrying, because every bit of economic activity has some cost on the planet. This cannot continue for ever.

[TheMercenary]

I respect these people 1 million times more... I know these people.

[Trilby]

Life is rarely that simple. Life is rarely black and white.

Everything is just fine until something unimaginable happens - like a catastrophic illness or the breadwinner loses the job (after doing everything "right" like in the above posters sign)


Life isn't like following a recipe: Do A and B and C will happen. I mean, you can try - you should try - to do the right thing but life has a way of making its own way. You can't blame people when cosmic shit happens to them.


eta - I am wondering. Do you think everyone should follow your example and live like you do? should everyone take direction from you? can you, will you explain the meaning of life to everyone? You certainly make out like you have all the answers and if people would just do as you say, it would all work out for them. If they don't do as you say, or do as you did, they are
god damn fools, right?

[TheMercenary]

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Thank you Merc. It's important to show the ugliness about these OWS events.
Our biased PDX news media missed that one.
I'm glad you spent your own time searching for that video to document it.
Even if it is just one or two young people among the 5000 - 7000
people in Occupy Portland, it deserves being reported.
Like you, concerned citizens need to stay informed.

Here's one you missed, unfortunately it's the only one I could find.

By Anita Kissee, KATU News
Published: Oct 16, 2011 at 5:28 PM PDT Last Updated: Oct 16, 2011 at 6:46 PM PDT
Sex offender registers Occupy Portland camp as address

PORTLAND, Ore. – A sex offender who registered his address with police
as the Occupy Portland camp downtown is concerning some protesters who are camping there.
<snip>

But then... maybe there's a cover up going on

KATU News searched for Curtis in sex offender databases in Oregon, Washington and California.
His name did not appear.
The Occupy Portland public safety team says they still take this seriously.
“I personally will engage with police if that’s necessary and we’ll take care of the problem,”
said public safety team member Nat Holder. “It’s zero tolerance for violence.”
26 people patrol the camps at night, according to public safety team members.
Despite one report of a possible sexual assault police could never confirm,
most protesters told KATU News they are not concerned about their safety in the camps.

[DanaC]

At least they're only singing about it. The people and organisations being protested against have taken a much more active approach to fucking the USA.

[infinite monkey]

Originally Posted by Brianna

Life is rarely that simple. Life is rarely black and white.

Everything is just fine until something unimaginable happens - like a catastrophic illness or the breadwinner loses the job (after doing everything "right" like in the above posters sign)


Life isn't like following a recipe: Do A and B and C will happen. I mean, you can try - you should try - to do the right thing but life has a way of making its own way. You can't blame people when cosmic shit happens to them.


eta - I am wondering. Do you think everyone should follow your example and live like you do? should everyone take direction from you? can you, will you explain the meaning of life to everyone? You certainly make out like you have all the answers and if people would just do as you say, it would all work out for them. If they don't do as you say, or do as you did, they are
god damn fools, right?

Even merc said that the world needs "ditch diggers" (I use that phrase only because it's fairly recognized as a 'lump-all' for less 'skilled' professions.) Yet merc seems to think that those ditch diggers should become better than ditch diggers if they want to make a living wage. How is the inequity even remotely defensible? We need the people who clean and who make widgets and who run the grocery etc and so on. Should they be denied something even close to a comfortable existence? Is the gap between the poor and the rich, and the subsequent squeezing out of the middle class, sustainable? No, it is not. Something, eventually, has to give.

I also wonder about merc's college students. Only because of the constant reminder that his kids get everything they could ever possibly want (crash a car, get a car, for example) am I quite wary that merc's kids are anything remotely close to the young person depicted in the sign in terms of sacrificing some of the finer things in life. This is not an insult. MOre power to merc and his family, good that you can help them start their lives. I'm sure they're wonderful people. But as Brianna pointed out, life is rarely simple, and I don't think the slots merc thinks we should fit in are one size fits all, after all.

Originally Posted by DanaC

At least they're only singing about it. The people and organisations being protested against have taken a much more active approach to fucking the USA.

Amen. Patriotism is working to make things better, for the good of the country. Patriotism is not hoping everyone falls on their face just so the supposed 'patriot' can say I told you so. That's a dangerous need, to have to be 'right' over being beneficial, over sustaining a country, over the needs of most and in favor of the wants of some.

We had a nice run as a superpower, though. All good things don't have to end, but greed and power-hunger and tyranny will surely take us right to that edge.

[Undertoad]

I'm a broad skeptic, I tend to try to work out the problem with everything. Also I took Econ 101 and loved it and learned a great deal.

There are no times when the pie gets bigger but the 1% keeps the entire increase.

You can't find those times on the chart. Please look for them and point them out if you find them. This is the economic principle I pointed out earlier: in the good times, the rich get richer faster; in the bad times, the rich get poorer faster.

Economic growth is a tide that lifts all boats, including both the big yacht and the little rowboat.

I do not care what other people make, as long as there is sufficient dynamism in the system that the money can regularly turn over and the 1% can regularly turn over. If the 1% have a lot of it now, that's fine, as long as they continue to want more of it. The only way they can do that is to invest it or spend it to try to make more of it in a risky environment. That creates growth and jobs. And that is the real reason the 1% are not being taxed harder right now: their spending creates more jobs than if the government takes it and spends it.

Lastly... like most of the Wall Street protesters, you have spent the majority of your life in the 1%... worldwide. If income inequality is a problem, you are part of it. Do you feel like you are raping and pillaging the hopes and dreams of billions of people? Well, why not?

[Lamplighter]

Some people have a sense of humor; some don't.

Posted in Out & About blog
by Jake Malooley on Oct 5, 2011 at 7:42pm

Chicago Mercantile Exchange protects identity of "WE ARE THE 1%" sign maker

[Lamplighter]

Chicago is arresting people... not a police riot,
but here's a sign that's really scary for older Chicagans...
/

[Stormieweather]

Companies making more money (profits) does not necessarily translate to more jobs. Corporations, particularly the BIG ones, are recording record-breaking profits. But there are a ways to make profits, besides selling more of your product. You can cut costs - employ less people, work them harder, pay them less, give them fewer benefits, export jobs overseas, take advantage of overseas tax havens, raise prices and get laws created in your favor (such as environmental deregulation). The simple fact remains that jobs will not be created in sufficient quantities until consumers have adequate funds to buy the products/services, thereby creating a demand for expansion, resulting in jobs.

The argument that if the 1% get richer, then so do the 99% is not exactly accurate, particularly in the last decade. The top 20% do (not by much!), but the other 80% are flat-lined or declining. Check the graphs in the attached, "Winners Take All" really demonstrates the situation. Inequality

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Companies making more money (profits) does not necessarily translate to more jobs. Corporations, particularly the BIG ones, are recording record-breaking profits. But there are a ways to make profits, besides selling more of your product. You can cut costs - employ less people, work them harder, pay them less, give them fewer benefits, export jobs overseas, take advantage of overseas tax havens, raise prices and get laws created in your favor (such as environmental deregulation). The simple fact remains that jobs will not be created in sufficient quantities until consumers have adequate funds to buy the products/services, thereby creating a demand for expansion, resulting in jobs.

The argument that if the 1% get richer, then so do the 99% is not exactly accurate, particularly in the last decade. The top 20% do (not by much!), but the other 80% are flat-lined or declining. Check the graphs in the attached, "Winners Take All" really demonstrates the situation.

Excellent post Stormie. worth a reread.

[DanaC]

That's an awesome sign.

Been watching the coverage of the occupations going on around the world. The one at St Paul's Cathedral in London looks great. There's a little (ok not so little) part of me really wishes i was down there. There's a much bigger part of me is grateful I am in fact at home, cosy and warm in my little cottage with readily accessible bathroom facilities :p

I wish them the best. Because they're doing this for me and us, not just themselves. They are engaged in a worthy struggle. They are exercising agency. Good on them.

The relatively low levels of violence and disorder associated with these occupation demos is staggering really. Demonstrations in London almost *always* descend into riot. Certainly from my own experience, I've never been on one that didnt.

The scenes from the occupation look fun. They remind me of Glastonbury. There was a time I'd have been there like a shot :p

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Been watching the coverage of the occupations going on around the world. The one at St Paul's Cathedral in London looks great. There's a little (ok not so little) part of me really wishes i was down there. There's a much bigger part of me is grateful I am in fact at home, cosy and warm in my little cottage with readily accessible bathroom facilities :p

...

The relatively low levels of violence and disorder associated with these occupation demos is staggering really. Demonstrations in London almost *always* descend into riot. Certainly from my own experience, I've never been on one that didnt.

Wait, so the ones you go to always descend into riot, and haven't gone to this one, and it hasn't descended into riot?

Time for an experiment...

[tw]

Originally Posted by DanaC

I wish them the best. Because they're doing this for me and us, not just themselves. They are engaged in a worthy struggle. They are exercising agency. Good on them.

For well over a decade, defined was this major problem that has only became worse when Cheney said, "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." I could not understand why so many did not see what is finally obvious to many. For the last decade, an average American worker has seen his incoming falling. That only happened twice in the history of America. Warnings of this problem, a pending economic calamity, and the history that predicted it were defined even in The Cellar. And still so many remained silent. Even when Enron, LTCM, the California Energy crisis, etc all proved who are some of America’s greatest enemies.

Both times in history, welfare for the rich resulted in America’s worst recessions. In part, because the rich do not create jobs, innovation, new products, new markets, and economic advancement. Only those who aspire to be rich do that. Both times in history, 1% reaped massive wealth while Americans saw their incomes diminish. Finally, some have complained. It was long overdue.

At what point does history prove the obvious. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Especially those who are paid the most money, bonuses, stock options, and other 'rewards'. Why do more successful companies pay their top people less money? Because the real source of that success reaps increased incomes. Many are finally learning that business school concepts and their student have created massive income disparity and economic stagnation.

Not like this was new to a Cellar dweller. And still some remain in denial by blaming the rest of us.