Gay Marriage

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by SteveDallas
Ummm OK so what's to stop me from claiming the continent you American turkeys refer to as "North America" in its entirety. After all, I am the high priest of the Rite of Steve, and I claim the land in the name of the great god Steve. Now I realize that you heathen Christians don't worship or even acknowledge the existence of Steve, so you can just get the hell out. If any of you wish to convert, I'll be happy to consider granting you some property rights.

Absolutely nothing Steve. You might however have a "little" trouble taking possession of the 5 acres I squat on.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by ladysycamore


And it's certainly not the "special groups" that we have to blame for that way of thinking.

After all, "majority rules", right?

No, Rho. Lobbyists rule.

[JeepNGeorge]

Originally posted by ladysycamore


"Taking advantage"? So, if it were Syc and I fighting for the same rights, then it's ok, but if it's same sex couples then it's "taking advantage"?

being used as in I took advantage of the discount sale at albertsons this weekend.

The government says Indians can take advantage of certain benefits allowed only to them. No problem right?

The same government says people married to the opposite sex can take advantage of certain benefits allowed only to them.
Now we have discrimination.

I don't care what the reasons are for either...seems to be a lil silly

[quzah]

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
being used as in I took advantage of the discount sale at albertsons this weekend.

The government says Indians can take advantage of certain benefits allowed only to them. No problem right?

The same government says people married to the opposite sex can take advantage of certain benefits allowed only to them.
Now we have discrimination.

I don't care what the reasons are for either...seems to be a lil silly

I still fail to see how it's harming you if there are same sex marriages. What do you care if it happens? You lose nothing. You lost nothing personally when opposite sex marriages occur, so why does it matter if there are same sex marriages? Why oppose them? What's to gain by opposing them?

Or just ignore all of my points like you've done so far. What do I care?

Quzah.

[juju]

Originally posted by juju
Do you think a man's attraction to women is a choice?

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Normally, no.

Well, how do you know that you're not just "choosing" to be attracted to women? Maybe that's a choice, too. Why do you think that it isn't?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Griff
Those perks really only exist as a fig leaf of the sovereignty which they were promised. We should all have these rights but resenting nat-am's for barely clinging to theirs seems counter-productive.

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
Just as the so called perks of marriage.

Except that heterosexuals aren't a massively wronged minority.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by quzah
They didn't have wheels, they didn't have horses. They didn't even build anything permenant. (Yes, there is a small exception to this; a few of the eastern tribes actually built lodges.)

Western tribes built massive adobe towns, excavated cave towns, and built stone buildings, all of which still exist to some extent.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by quzah

This is another thing that pisses me off. It should probably be another thread, but since this has been high-jacked anyway...

The NA get money for the fact that whitey drove them off their lands. They say how horrible whitey was for coming over, "taking their lands" and then kicking their ass.

Precisely.

Well let's look at what happened before whitey came over:

NA wandered around dragging their tents behind them, kicking eachothers asses. End of story.

Exactly. "Whitey" had no goddamned right to come and take over like they did. Natives were minding their own damned business, until...

{snip}

Sure, don't get me wrong, lots of people died. But don't even act like the NA were some peaceful happy-go-lucky group of people that were all innocent and fun. They weren't. They slaughtered eachother. They raided eachothers tribes. They raped eachothers womens. They kidnapped eachothers young. They were not a friendly people en masse.

M'kay: this sounds like, "Well, if THEY can kill each other, then it's ok if WE (whitey) kill them too!!!" Say what?!?

*shaking my head....*

[juju]

I know this is beside the point, but it's still interesting.

Jared Diamond argues in the book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that Native Americans failed to develop technology as fast as the Europeans mostly because of a lack of large domesticatable animals (and plants).

Europeans had horses, pigs, cows, sheep, and goats. Native Americans had nothing!

Cultures that lived in regions containing domesticatable animals and plants were able to switch over from a hunter-gather lifestyle to an agricultural lifestyle, and as a result, developed technology more quickly.

But yes, of course they still killed each other.

[quzah]

Originally posted by ladysycamore
Exactly. "Whitey" had no goddamned right to come and take over like they did. Natives were minding their own damned business, until...

Why? Who says they can't? Because you don't like it? PersonsA invades PersonsB all throughout history. What makes one OK and another wrong? Because it steps on your toes here and not there?

Originally posted by ladysycamore
M'kay: this sounds like, "Well, if THEY can kill each other, then it's ok if WE (whitey) kill them too!!!" Say what?!?

*shaking my head....*

So it's fine to lump "all the indians" together, as a mass, and let them have their infighting, and that's OK, but it's not OK if someone else wants to go fight with them too?

You missed my point, which is: Why is it fine for them to have their infighting, but horrific when whitey wants to play too?

So it's ok for TribeA to fight TribeB, but when OutsiderGroupA comes along, they can't kill anyone? See the absurdity in your logic here? If Whitey had used bows and arrows, then would it have been OK for them to fight too? Was it the guns that made it wrong? Superior firepower? Your logic makes no sense.

Quzah.

[elSicomoro]

Who was making the Native Americans out to be a bunch of peacemongers here?

Quzah, I'm afraid that I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that Native Americans as a group should not get special considerations?

[wolf]

Originally posted by FileNotFound
Slang.

I URGE you to go rent Eddie Izzard. He has a great piece regarding colonisation and flags...

I like his bit on Pagans and Stonehenge.

[slang]

Originally posted by sycamore
Look, my peeps may be fat lazy alcoholic dopesmokers, but they weren't stupid enough to believe in some crackpot religious BS cooked up by Whitey.

If NAs were collectively fat lazy alcoholic dopesmokers......
they would fit into this modern day American society like a glove!

My limited experience with them doesnt support them being FLADs though. My experience is very limited though because <a href="http://www.rootsweb.com/~srgp/families/qesther.htm"<a>General Sullivan (read last paragraph) </a> killed all but a handful in this area, leaving no decendants for me to argue with and harass.

Now, lets look at this white religious BS and it's importance to one's survival, at that time.

soldier: Do you believe in Jesus?
injun: ......Katanka...
soldier: BANG!...Do you believe in Jesus?
smart injun: (starts weeping) Why, yes and I feel blessed that he has come into my life and saved me from eternal damnation.
soldier: Outstanding! Here are some clothes and some real food. Shit-can that feathery headset and I'll introduce you to my sister.

[preacherswife2u]

I'm not quite sure why it is assumed that all christians are homophobic. At least, that is what I'm inferring from many posts here.

Granted, there are most certainly some who are...maybe even many...but all?

There have been so many intelligent arguments displayed here, and it is very easy to understand that homosexual couples would desire the same rights/advantages of marriage; however, one would be hard-pressed to find a very large number of evangelical christians to support that request.

Why? Well, it certainly must be because we are all vehwy, vehwy afwaid of them. Or maybe it's just that we hate them. (I'm being sarcastic here, just in-case that is not translating...)

For christians, the Bible is law. Some of man's laws coincide with scripture, some do not. It should not be too surprising that christians would not like to see something that is against God's law, become legal as man's law. That's not too hard to understand, right?

So, what do we do about that? We attempt to put people in office that will support out beliefs when it comes to these issues. How is that so different from those who would do the opposite. Why does it always have to be misconstrued as *fear* or *phobia*?

Same sex relationships are an abomination in God's eyes. (Yes, that's in the Bible. I'll post scripture ref. if anyone really cares to know, but I don't think anyone would doubt that this is in the Bible. And this matters to me because the Bible is my authority...yes, even above man's laws). As a christian, I could do nothing less than to fight against legalization of homosexual marriage.

Do I think that I can actually stop the world from doing whatever it wants to? No. Do I think that it is a possibility that christians can keep everyone from sinning, thus making the world a warm, fuzzy place for us to live in? No, and believe it or not, we realize that would be scripturally impossible. The Bible speaks of the depravity of man... It's just a matter of time. The world will become more and more sinister. It all plays out in revelation. (I post these comments based on my belief in God as represented in the Bible...just in case that did not translate as well.)

However, not even the above-mentioned scenario will deter me (us) from trying to be a light in a dark world.

I am not afraid of homosexuals. They do not *creep me out*. They are just people, in need of a Savior, IMHO. Of course, I know that these types of comments won't go over well with many here. I just thought it was worthy of saying. We (christians) are just trying to live our lives the way we feel God wants us to. Just trying to find our way...searching for God's will every day. Desiring to show the love of Christ to all that we come in contact with. Most of us mean no harm...really.

So, with that said...back to your regularly scheduled debate.

(I have really enjoyed reading through these forums for the past few days...haven't gotten much cleaning done for Thanksgiving though. So many intelligent people here. So many funny people here...some are both. Bracing myself now for what ever replies will come. Bring it on...I can handle it. It can't be scarier than natural child birth...)

Blessings,

Jennifer <><

[slang]

A very large percentage of people here have had less than positive experiences with the bible and God so therefore discount any of the wisdom of each.

MY internet connection is unbefuckinglievably slow for some unknown reason so I am unable to keep up with posts as normal.

By slow I mean it takes 2 fucking minutes just to access the reply dialog.