Murdoch Meltdown

[ZenGum]

Nice one, respectfullySexybon.

[DanaC]

Y'know. There are times this place restores my faith in humanity. Bruce, Zen, and V, you totally rock. Blokes that get it.

Sexy BonBon: very funny :P


@ Merc: it's really not about wanting to cover up the titties. It's about context and about a determined culture.

[Griff]

Wow, that was spectacular. Once again, nice try Bruce. I guess the bottom line is that free speech allows everyone to expose themselves.

[BigV]

Dear sexanob- you, sir, are one smartfunny MF.

Dana, thanks for the kind words. very kind, thank you.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

Hey mercy--

You certainly have the right to call any woman any name you like.

And you and others have done is tried to turn it into a false notion that I have a problem with women because I used the word "tart". It starts in post 121. Then onto 145 where I reiterated that I was talking about the paper, not the person who posts on Page 3. And by post 150 it is now about "ALL" women. What bullshit. That is not what I said. Buy 171 I reiterate that it is not about all women.

You can't simultaneously beat your breast in righteous indignation about your first amendment right to free speech and in the same breath disallow the same remark by someone else about someone else, who, coincidentally happens to be part of your family.

Why not? Isn't that suppose to be the major crime here, posting personal comments about peoples family? I have not done that. It amazes me how often you try to turn things I say into Black or White positions you think I have when I don't think like that on most issues, most issues in life are Grey, not one or the other, this or that, that can't or don't adjust from situation to situation.

That makes you a complete hypocrite and makes your argument invalid, by virtue of the "except when I say so" stamp of disapproval.

No, it makes anyone who tries to turn it into some assumption about how I feel about all women in general, and that is more bullshit.

It's ok to talk shit about women, or it's not. Pick one. Just one. Choosing a middle ground opens every other position to the same nuance.

I see it as ok to talk about anything we want, why are these constraints on discussion? But yet people have always gotten into group trouble for talking about family members of the board who they don't know, correct or not? Making that a bit more of a personal attack, correct or not? Even I have been overwhelmingly attacked when I slipped and said something out of context that insulted someone other than the person I was talking with. I tried never to do it again. Plenty of people have made comments like "tart" or "dick" or general comments about men and women and have not been lambasted because the may harbor some great disrespect for one sex or the other? Right or not? So how this one comment by me has been blow out of proportion is beyond me. What a ridiculous notion.

Personally, I find your opinion offensive. You don't know these women. No way. Maybe they are tarts. Maybe they are sluts.

I have not called them "sluts". And to blow this into something it is not by a single post is foolish. It was a passing comment, not some righteous indignation about all women, good God get a grip! Maybe it is nothing more than a difference between UK speak and US speak? Did you ever consider that or are you just another member of the mob ready to pounce when you see something I post that you don't agree with or like?

The insulting tone of voice is abundantly clear, but you don't get to pass judgment on them without receiving the same judgment by others.

No, the obvious read into what you and others want to believe about me is abundantly clear, and the more I get such responses the less I care about the general response, but I choose to respond to you for a number of reasons.

Look. I went to Slutwalk in Seattle a short while ago and there were LOTS of sluts walking with me (heh... I was walking with them, really, no way it was *my* parade, I am just one of the sluts).

Great, I might have been there as well if I lived there and the very thought that you could never believe otherwise says a hell of a lot more about you and what you don't know about me is quite telling.

.. your derision of women who choose (as you yourself pointed out) to show their tits is up to you.

Yea, based on a that one comment you figured all that out about me...

Here's a picture that made my whole weekend. I walked up to this young woman and thanked her for the best present Father's Day present I got. Now I offer this same gift to you. If you love your daughters and your wife and your mother, you owe a measure of respect to all women, despite what they wear or don't wear. Emphasis mine.

And here, even in this last summarizing comment you show that you don't know me in the least bit. I am the last person to judge people by what they wear or don't wear, but what you and the usual gang of people who disagree with me on a host of issues, have done is try to pigeon hole me into what you think I think about a single subject.

[BigV]

Thanks for the reply mercy. I'll start with your conclusion.

I don't know you very well, but it is not for lack of desire or effort. I do listen/read what you post. I do make judgements about what I read. I also keep my mind open, and keep adjusting my conclusions as my understanding changes.

It seems clear that I don't understand you. I think I still don't. I won't put words in your mouth, but I will try to explain how I came to the conclusions I made before. I'll try to follow along the same track you made. One more thing. I'm not trying to persuade you or beat you down or show you up. I love women in general, and I've loved a number of them in particular.

You know what--rather than a big long windy blah blah blah blah, I'll ask you something. For me, my understanding of the term "tart" in this context is approximately equal to "whore". When you used it, it really pushed a big button for me. Let me ask you this, what is your feeling, your understanding of the word "tart" here?

Perhaps we're much closer than I imagined, perhaps I'm hung up on something I misunderstood.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by BigV

Thanks for the reply mercy. I'll start with your conclusion.

I don't know you very well, but it is not for lack of desire or effort. I do listen/read what you post. I do make judgements about what I read. I also keep my mind open, and keep adjusting my conclusions as my understanding changes.

It seems clear that I don't understand you. I think I still don't. I won't put words in your mouth, but I will try to explain how I came to the conclusions I made before. I'll try to follow along the same track you made. One more thing. I'm not trying to persuade you or beat you down or show you up. I love women in general, and I've loved a number of them in particular.

You know what--rather than a big long windy blah blah blah blah, I'll ask you something. For me, my understanding of the term "tart" in this context is approximately equal to "whore". When you used it, it really pushed a big button for me. Let me ask you this, what is your feeling, your understanding of the word "tart" here?

Perhaps we're much closer than I imagined, perhaps I'm hung up on something I misunderstood.

Never something so derogatory! More like sexy, fresh, flamboyant, show off, tease.... Even though it was a flippant remark it was NOT intended to be a negatively laced comment. It was more off the cuff than anything. I have never considered to term "tart" to be analogous to "whore", at least I have not ever used it in such a manner.

But yet mob mentality lead the way...

[DanaC]

It's all about context really. Depending how it's used the word 'tart' like the word 'slut' can be fun, or it can be derogatory. The context here was that in response to a comment I made about the tabloid use of a particular and very focused lexicon around women and the whole idea of 'Page 3 Girls' in which women show off their tits as a bit of fun in between news stories, is damaging. Not because it is degrading (though I think it is), but because it is wholly dismissive.

You then respond with a comment about 'tarts' showing off their tits on page 3.

Essentialy you responded with the same language and dismissive tone to which i was objecting at the same time signalling that you see no problem with women's bodies providing light relief in between serious news stories.

Like I said before: I am not on a campaign to cover up the titties. I just think the message it sends when they are just thrown in as an object to gawp at before continuing on to the next news item, is a very unfortunate one. It certainly struck me as horrible when I was growing up with that shit.

[BigV]

I'm glad to hear it.

If you go look at post #120, the first place the word "tart" appears in this thread, you'll see it is used in a much more derogatory way. "tart, slapper, hooker". I've read other references that confirm this. This is where I get my understanding of what "tart" means in the context local to where this is happening, the UK.

Your use of tart, with your expanded explanation, makes for a very different conversation. Calling a page three girl a hooker is different than calling her a tease.

I'm not part of the mob, I was going from the context here.

Truce?

[infinite monkey]

It's so hypocritical to make these judgments when one willingly begs for tit shots on a regular basis. Sure, you can argue it's that person's "choice" but honestly I think it plays on self-esteem and a need to be liked. It's very sneaky that way: I LOVE and RESPECT women. Nice cunt there, by the way. Thanks for showing it...I don't give a fuck what your reasons were, really. I'll pretend that it all comes down to your deep love and acceptance of your "self" though I've not often cared much what you've actually had to say. I will pretend that you didn't feel it was a way to get attention, acceptance, money, love, or any of the other motivators that might make the action seem due to lack of self-esteem or other unsavory notions, and that instead it's just that we're all progressive folks who are really in tune with our bodies and the people's intentions around them. Odds are probably 1 in 10 you really are just a happy exhibitionist, but in my mind I'll apply that label to all who bare it, so as not ever have to deal with the fact that I indeed may be a lecherous old fool.

[BigV]

Who are you talking about im? I hear you describing thoughts and actions and motivations of a number of parties in your post, but it's confusing. rather than put words in your mouth, would you please expand on just who you are "speaking for" and who you're "speaking about"? thanks in advance.

[infinite monkey]

'Everyman' with exceptions and 'everywoman' with exceptions. It's a general jab at the calling out of the "wrong" words to call women by those who have no qualms objectifying women in a hundred other ways, and of women who present the opportunities for objectification.

I hear you describing thoughts and actions and motivations of a number of parties in your post...

Well absolutely, if by 'number of parties' you mean it could apply to a whole shitload of people. There isn't need to assign names because the thoughts and actions and motivations and words are prolific: I won't even go so far as to say "in the cellar" because I'm talking about the whole general shebang.

The only way you tried to put words into my mouth was to assume that I meant anyone in particular. Look around. It's the way of the world, doncha know? And I'll jump on every chance I get to point out the hypocrisy of it, and to point out that's why we've "come a long way baby" but we still have so so so far to go.

So, no, it's not about you or you or you or you, per se. It's about the "everyyou."

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

I'll pretend that it all comes down to your deep love and acceptance of your "self"...

I'm cool with that.

[infinite monkey]

But truly, it wasn't about merc in particular. Not because I don't think he's just as guilty as the rest of us, but because I don't think he's any MORE guilty than the rest of us. The fingers pointing at him were laughable, given my previously stated feelings on the issue.

OK, merc?

(Funny how everyone is jumping up to see if it's about them. Yeesh. Feel like a heel much?)

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

But truly, it wasn't about merc in particular. Not because I don't think he's just as guilty as the rest of us, but because I don't think he's any MORE guilty than the rest of us. The fingers pointing at him were laughable, given my previously stated feelings on the issue.

OK, merc?

(Funny how everyone is jumping up to see if it's about them. Yeesh. Feel like a heel much?)

Yea. I just thumbed through about 3 or 4 of the pics threads and the comments made there are much more explictly suggestive than me calling some general group of people in a daily tabloid "tarts". Where is the mob mentality in those threads, how about the comment in the NSFW threads or the Dweller NSFW thread? Where are the self-righteous jumping over long time dwellers commenting there? No generally this mob has been and is about me.