What do you hear when people say freedom?

[henry quirk]

"the strongest OPINION I can glean from you is that there is no such thing as freedom in any form, so you might as well grab what you can when you can no matter how it effects or affects those around you."


that i ain't what i wrote...not by a long shot

should i go though the thread and cite myself, perhaps list the post numbers for you so you can -- with ease (heaven forbid you should be taxed!) -- find and read exactly what i DID post?

no, of course not: that would be an act of 'redundancy' which i know you find so distasteful

so: you -- of course -- may misinterpret as you like...don't, however, be surprised when i, or someone else, corrects you

it's one thing to be dense...it something else entirely to be a liar...

[Queen of the Ryche]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

'What do you hear when people say 'freedom'?'

a fiction

really: what are any of us 'free' of?

each of us is bound up in, and by, 'the world' (both within and without)

none of us are 'free', so: 'freedom' is a nice fiction, a convenient, and sometimes useful, fiction, but still a fiction

what we each have is far more powerful and real than 'freedom' or 'free will': we have agency, or, the capacity to choose

not an unlimited capacity to choose, but -- at all times, in all circumstances -- a capacity, a possibility, nonetheless

and synonymous with agency is self-possession, that is: the willful claiming of one's self and the defense of that claim

i claim my 'self' as my first, best, property and do as i like within the broad boundaries of 'the world'

your job -- if you want it -- is to defend yourself against my possible predation on you (just as i must defend myself against predation by you)


seems to me: you defend against the predator simply because you value yourself (a subjective, idiosyncratic, perception), not because of a 'moral', or 'law'

certainly: climbing atop a soapbox (on a street corner, or, in the statehouse) and droning on about the sanctity of your 'freedom' nets a body nothing... --henry quirk

So am I incorrect in stating that your opinion is that freedom does not exist, and we have no reason to care for others, other than what we can take from them?

[henry quirk]

so: based on one post -- ignoring all my others which expand and clarify -- you judge me and my positions

nice...typical

hell: even in the one post you do cite there are things which refute this, 'see us all as ants or drones with no free will and no value'

dense

[Queen of the Ryche]

Nope. Disagreeing with you does not make me dense. Speaking in complete sentences does not make me dense. Citing one example of your opinion does not make me dense. I simply didn't see a reason to cite posts 41, 45, 47, 48, 53, 68, 101, 105, 169, and 171 which ALL pretty much say the SAME THING. AGAIN. And AGAIN.

I have the FREEDOM to express my opinion of your opinion on this thread.

[henry quirk]

you claim this: '(henry) see(s) us all as ants or drones with no free will and no value'

this is my refutation...

-----

Post 87:

"we are the scum of the earth"

speak for yourself, and only for yourself

i applaud, as you say, you speaking your mind 'as honestly as possible'

this is a good thing

i too simply speak my mind as honestly as possible

so: when i say you are as hobbled, reactionary, and stupefied as those you decry, you'll take my comment within the context of this thread, and my previous comments in this thread...that is: as an honest expression of opinion

all this...

"we kill, torture or imprison all life, including our own.
it is, without doubt, our nature to do so.
we do so for greed, sport.
we have no respect for any life on this planet, including our own.
face it, we are the scum of the earth"

...which seems to be a summation of your view, is nothing less or more than mickey mouse, high school, pedestrian, bullshit

whip, are you presently torturing or imprisoning anyone?

whip, are you currently tortured or imprisoned by anyone?

whip, are you wholly without respect for any-one or -thing?

whip, if YOU are not tortured, imprisoned, or, are not torturing or imprisoning anyone, then your little coggish diatribe is meaningless

whip, if YOU can muster even one little erg of respect for some-one or -thing, then your little coggish display is for shit.

sure: lots of folks 'kill, torture or imprison' for all kinds of reasons, but not ALL of us do

living is way more colorful and complex than you seem to think

of course: as i said before, you can do as you like with your life, time, and resources...if this means wallowing in a teen's nihilism, then get to it

again: i decline to participate... --henry

-----

Post 88:

what i find most deplorable about the simplicities of folks like whip: such simplicities are based on generalizations of behavior, medians of behavior, which tend toward fictionalizations of behavior, which tend toward ignoring the extraordinary in favor of the ordinary

that is: even if 99 assholes shit on the floor, it's criminal to ignore the 1 person who uses the toilet

*shrug*

-----

post 98:

"we determine the nature of the wolf by observing the wolf. the actions of the wolf determine the wolf's nature."

so, in your view: the wolf (a kind of bio-automaton…determined and generic) is the equivalent of a self-aware, self-determining, unique, human individual

if this is the foundation of your thinking, then it's no wonder you're on the wrong track


"we are the crudest thing on this planet."

if you judge humanity by the single measure of 'we've always killed, we will always kill', then we're not better or worse than any other animal

i prefer to judge humanity by the actions of the individuals who comprise humanity, and i prefer to judge humanity not only by way of the profane but also the holy

you, my dear whip, are a cog (a knucklehead mcspazatron)...does this mean all humans are cogs?

of course not: only the willfully blind, stupid, and simple are cogs

*shrug*

-----

Post 101:

quirky, you're going to argue on the value of human life?"

no

i'm arguing the value of the human individual, the single one, the idiosyncrat, the philosophical ego


"well lets see what humans have done on this planet vs all other life"

a pointless comparison: no other animal on this benighted globe, no matter how extraordinary it may be, does what any average human does or can do

find me a non-human to debate with and your view will hold water more cleanly

'till you can find me a non-human debate partner: your position, as stated, is simplistic, one-dimensional, pedestrian, and unoriginal

the fact that we -- you and me -- can have this back 'n forth dickering says an awful lot about the capacities and capabilities of the human individual, as individual, and in alignment with other individuals

koko ain't got nuthin' on me (or you, for that matter)


"humans have poisoned the waters."

and all manner of life still thrives in ocean, sea, and river


"we've poluted the air."

still seems breathable to me and to most of the life i spy 'round me


"we've raped the earth."

oh please: there's not a one of us with a cock big enough to accomplish that!

so (melo)dramatic of you, whip...


"where is our will to survive?"

i can't, and won't speak, for the fictional 'will' of the fictional 'collective'

however: speaking for myself, i intend on lingering 'round for another 40 years or so

you?


"we're taking all other life with us"

so what?

yeah: we kill things, we eat things, we waste things....so what?


"what makes you so proud to be human?"

not a question of pride in the species...the species i'm a party to is incidental...i do, however, take a great deal of pleasure in being 'me'

does that count for anything?


"you see yourself as superior to all other life"

certainly seems that way to me

i eat cows, pigs, chickens, sheep, deer, etc

some of these i kill myself...some i buy from the market...in either case: 'i' eat 'them', not the other way around

i certainly see myself as superior to YOU...your head is full of coggish bullshit, your eyes dimmed by (dead) rose-color


"your actions prove the opposite"

so: what actions are those?


"you're in prison, and you call yourself free"

nope...i say i self-possess; 'freedom' has nothing to do with anything


"i see humanity as being at a pre-infant state."

i see 'humanity' (mostly comprised of wingnuts) as obstacle


"now you can point all you want bird fetus gobbler, but you're only pointing at yourself"

in my experience: self-loathing is foundational for cogs like you

as the magic jew said: go pull the fucking log outta yer own eye, then you can tell yer neighbor about the splinter in his... –henry

-----

post 105:

Henry, the views you espouse regarding human superiority make me feel sick.

(((good)))

(((the truth hurts...it should hurt...it should make you sick)))

(((the notion that you -- a single human individual -- have more value than all the chickens, cows, pigs, deer, geese, etc. put together should scare the bejeezus out of you)))

(((being a human individual is an awe-full responsibility)))

(((that so many abdicate that responsibility by way of adopting bullshit, namby-pamby, hippyisms, or by way of consistent poor choices, is a fucking shame...but -- really -- not my god damned problem)))

(((so: abcde, as i told the whip, you should feel absolutely free to discharge yourself on whatever foolishness you like...if elevating mere animals to the status of human is your bag, then have at it)))

(((if denigrating yourself, making yourself 'mere animal', is your thing, then -- again -- have at it)))

(((i'm very tolerant of all manner of insanities and inanities...i simply refuse to participate in them)))


...your complete disregard for all other life seems to support WHIP's view on human nature far more that it supports your own.

(((i don't disregard 'all other life'...i simply put 'all other life' into its proper place in the great, natural, hierarchy)))

(((again: find me a non-human debate partner and i'll be glad to reassess the circumstance and adjust my view...)))

-----

Post 140:

dearest whip:

when you write, 'we are the scum of the earth' you most certainly ARE attempting to speak for all

you make an assessment, you state it as though it were fact, you show offense when refutation is offered

again: if you wish to self-assess as 'scum', feel free

i have no reason at this point to disagree with that self-assessment

my only complaint is the certainty with which you generalize that self-assessment to everyone else

in my experience: there are many who are most surely not 'scum'...so: your universal assessment is in error, is refuted, and you, sir/madam, stand corrected

now: go to your room... –henry

-----

post 170:

"we are fleas on this planet"

when i say 'fleas' i mean in scale, not in value

the pedestrian musings of the whip and the sugarpop are, i think, value-statements i disagree with

to be a flea in scale still allows for nobility and greatness

to be 'scum' or a 'virus' in essence, in nature, allows only for stasis and parasitism

*shrug*

-----

Post 171:

"if joe is an enemy of mine (he killed my nephew, fucked my wife, ate my dog, etc.), and i hurt joe, 'harm' him, by stealing from him, this is a concern for me, how?"

this raises, of course, the bullshit argument of: well you reap what you so, mr quirk

if joe 'hurts' you then why are you complaining?

he just doing what 'you' do, isn't he?

yes he is...and if he does it to 'you', unless 'you' have some value to 'me', i could not care less

since however, i am everything to myself: i tend to take a dim view of being treated as resource, though -- certainly -- if suits my cause, i will use joe as resource

and since there is a small number of folks who 'matter' to me: i take also take a dim view of joe using any one of them as resource

morality, ethics, decency, justice, equality, and on and on are the sometimes useful fictions used to allow for a semblance of 'peace'

these fictions are tools used to craft another, sometimes useful, fiction: civilization

sure as shit: the next major catastrophe that slams into the world will illustrate how thin the veneer is on civilization and how angel farty 'morality, ethics, decency, justice, equality, and on and on' are

this, of course, is deplorable and you all should shun me, avert your eyes, write letters to the local papers, and report me to the net police...

-----

done and done... --henry

[henry quirk]

"I have the FREEDOM to express my opinion of your opinion on this thread"

actually, no, you don't

you've been given the privilege to do so by the owner/mods

if you were truly 'free' to post here, then no one could pull your plug

*shrug*

as for your 'opinion': as i said, 'you -- of course -- may misinterpret as you like...'

i also said: 'don't, however, be surprised when i, or someone else, corrects you'

so: consider yourself corrected...or not...can't work up much of a 'care' either way...

[Queen of the Ryche]

when i say 'fleas' i mean in scale, not in value ok fleas. not ants. sorry.

if joe 'hurts' you then why are you complaining?

he just doing what 'you' do, isn't he?

yes he is...and if he does it to 'you', unless 'you' have some value to 'me', i could not care less
hence, no value, unless it benefits you.

Freedom: See all of your other posts I just referenced.

You will not change my opinion of you sir, no matter how hard you try. I still see you as a bitter Academic with a sad sour view of the world and those around you. That is all.

[DanaC]

@ Queenie: Whoah, whoah whoah there. Please do not lump me and Sugar in with Henry as some kind of academic contingent. Please. Not given the rest of your post.




@ Henry: please, don't take this as some kind of attempt at infringing upon your creative freedom (pun intended) but I find your posts very difficult to read. It really does make for an easier and more enjoyable reading experience if the quotes are clearly marked out, especially if they're separated from the body of the text and visually marked out as different.

[Aliantha]

All I have to say is, "OH MY FUCKING GOD!" (and I don't even know if god exists...or fucks for that matter...oh shit, I'm going to hell!)

[DanaC]

Look me up when you get there.

[Aliantha]

We can have a cellar.org reunion.

[Shawnee123]

I do hope you realize that I have already signed on to be satan's girlfriend. I get the good room. I'll invite you over for drinks sometimes, though.

[Aliantha]

Yes well, as the first lady of hell, you wont get as much time to party as we will, having less responsibility and all you know.

[Shawnee123]

He is one demanding devil! Sigh, such is my lot in life, um, I mean death.

[W.HI.P]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"just bored with your "expansion."

so bored you just HAD to stick in two, worthless, cents

now: that makes sense...


"WE GET IT"

no: really, you don't...but if you think you do, then, stop responding

by the way: my little posts were directed to sugarpop, were in direct response to sugarpop...or: hadn't you noticed?

ummm, if you had been a good student of mine, you would have quoted sugarpop so people know who you're talking to.

"...see us all as ants or drones with no free will and no value. Take what you want, the rest be damned."

not that you will: but if that's what you think i've been posting, you really need to go back and READ again...

people have taken time out,l to show you [the little h'cap boy]
how to use the quote button so that people can read your posts.

you say that we should argue what you post not how you post.
i think , what you post is so fucking stupid, you need a distraction like, people not being able to read your posts to hide your stupidity.

there are other sites that don't have these features to help out the readers, maybe you should go to one of them and post your little [[['''' and what not.