Do You Own a Gun?

[Sundae]

Yup, with you all on that.
Can we include "you fascists" too please?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I feel it's wrong because that's the way the society in which I was raised feels. I would not try to change them anymore than I would allow them to change me to their way of thinking.

I don't buy that--you try to change people's minds on here all the time. Okay, some of us are from the same society, but you've discussed things with Brits and Aussies too, and worked to convince them of what you believe. Hell, your whole position on the gun topics is that taking a life is an inherently horrible thing, even if it's a criminal's life. You have a strong sense of right and wrong, Spexx, which means you can't be a complete moral relativist.

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I maintain that if left alone, unsocialized, we would not hesitate to kill one another in order to eat and procreate. Think about how a three year old acts. If another kid has a toy that he wants, he'll walk over and bop the kid and take the toy.

You seem to be getting hung up on the idea that we are innately aware of these natural rights and will always act on them. Obviously that's not true. But if it's wrong to arbitrarily kill a child--if it's wrong to kill a thief trying to steal your chewing gum--then you have already recognized that that person has an inherent right to live. That right supercedes all societal conventions, unless you believe in total moral relativism.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

... I'm asking you about the jungle people who sacrifice kids. Why do you feel that it's wrong for them to sacrifice the children? Is it only because it would be wrong in your society? Do you recognize the right of the jungle society to sacrifice their children if that's what they've agreed to do, or would you try to make them stop the practice?

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I feel it's wrong because that's the way the society in which I was raised feels. I would not try to change them anymore than I would allow them to change me to their way of thinking.
...

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I don't buy that--you try to change people's minds on here all the time. Okay, some of us are from the same society, but you've discussed things with Brits and Aussies too, and worked to convince them of what you believe. Hell, your whole position on the gun topics is that taking a life is an inherently horrible thing, even if it's a criminal's life. You have a strong sense of right and wrong, Spexx, which means you can't be a complete moral relativist.
...

You're right, I probably would try to change them.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

... But if it's wrong to arbitrarily kill a child--if it's wrong to kill a thief trying to steal your chewing gum--then you have already recognized that that person has an inherent right to live. That right supercedes all societal conventions, unless you believe in total moral relativism.

My point is that I/we recognize that a person has the right to live because that's the way we were socialized. Not everybody thinks that way, which means there are not universal "rights", they differ by society. I think your example of the jungle people shows that. Ask them if the children have a right to live. Ask a Saudi if a thief has the right not to have his hand cut off for stealing. As soon as you understand that rights differ by society, you have to acknowledge that they are determined by society.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

As soon as you understand that rights differ by society, you have to acknowledge that they are determined by society.

No, society determines what rights are taken away.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, society determines what rights are taken away.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's what happens when you're wrong.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, society determines what rights are taken away.

Society can't take away rights, it can just violate them.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Radar

Society can't take away rights, it can just violate them.

Nonsense, if they prevent you from exercising them they have taken them away. A right delayed is a right denied, and a right denied is a right lost.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

My point is that I/we recognize that a person has the right to live because that's the way we were socialized. Not everybody thinks that way, which means there are not universal "rights", they differ by society. I think your example of the jungle people shows that. Ask them if the children have a right to live. Ask a Saudi if a thief has the right not to have his hand cut off for stealing. As soon as you understand that rights differ by society, you have to acknowledge that they are determined by society.

If that's your point, than you have no point. We do have universal, immutable, and undeniable rights and they are the same for all people regardless of what personal beliefs they have or what kind of culture or "society" they live in or were raised in. Some "societies" violate rights more than others, but that does not mean people don't have the universal and natural rights that are being violated.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Radar

If that's your point, than you have no point. We do have universal, immutable, and undeniable rights and they are the same for all people regardless of what personal beliefs they have or what kind of culture or "society" they live in or were raised in. Some "societies" violate rights more than others, but that does not mean people don't have the universal and natural rights that are being violated.

Wrong. They may violate what you perceive as rights, but your perception doesn't make it so.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Wrong. They may violate what you perceive as rights, but your perception doesn't make it so.

Wrong. My rights aren't a perception, a "concept", or a social agreement. My rights are a tangible reality whether or not you choose to ignore them. If you doubt my rights are a reality, try to violate them and you will find very real bullets in your ass.

[bluecuracao]

Why, thanks, wolf.

It'd be hard to do though, considering I live in a condo building. Maybe I could hang a sign out my window, see what happens.

[wolf]

Actually, the problem in Philadelphia is that they so heavily regulate concealed carry permits that it's virtually impossible to get one, unless you are politically connected. Although the rest of the state operates as it's supposed to, as shall-issue, Philadelphia is effectively may-issue.

[bluecuracao]

It can't be that impossible--there are a lot of permit holders in Philly.