Unpopular opinions you hold

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That form of thing already occurs with the FAFSA. If your kid goes to college, every parent must fill this out. It tells the college exactly how much money they can get from your parents and how much they don't have to help your kid to pay through grants or scholarship.

Ah, spoken like a good parent of a college student, not the student themselves. FAFSA is in fact completely voluntary, and many parents are dicks and refuse to give their information out. Shawnee123 works in a college financial aid office and can tell you all about how parents can suck. (My own father, in fact, refused to give his information for this purpose--not to be a dick, because we already knew I was never going to qualify for any aid anyway, but because he's a privacy nut.) I'm talking about pulling the information from their tax forms, no permission required. Furthermore, FAFSA has nothing to do with admissions, only how much they'll help you pay if you manage to get in on your own. The argument behind affirmative action is not that minorities can't afford college, it's that they're being held back from going in the first place.

I know many kids of rich parents who were tossed out on their ass at 18, some who's parents steal from them to this day even though they have more money than their kids still. Knew several of them bustin'-it through college right along with me.
It is screwed-up.

[DanaC]

There's an idea floating around Whitehall at the moment to introduce some kind of check on university applicants to see if their parents have a degree.....idea being to try and increase the number of kids from lower income/less educated households getting into uni. Fucking studid idea if ever I heard one. Please for God's sake someone shoot our PM. Y'know we used to have a really good uni system over here. Any student who wanted to go to uni and had the a-levels to get in, was entitled to a grant to assist with living expenses and their tuition fees were covered by the state. It worked. It only stopped working when people got this idea that half the population should be attending university......brilliant...now a degree is worth what an a-level used to be and will just about get you a job in middle-management. Meanwhile the huge number of people who've been persuaded to get that degree whowould otherwise not, have encumbered themselves with huge debts.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by DanaC

There's an idea floating around Whitehall at the moment to introduce some kind of check on university applicants to see if their parents have a degree.....idea being to try and increase the number of kids from lower income/less educated households getting into uni. Fucking studid idea if ever I heard one. Please for God's sake someone shoot our PM. Y'know we used to have a really good uni system over here. Any student who wanted to go to uni and had the a-levels to get in, was entitled to a grant to assist with living expenses and their tuition fees were covered by the state. It worked. It only stopped working when people got this idea that half the population should be attending university......brilliant...now a degree is worth what an a-level used to be and will just about get you a job in middle-management. Meanwhile the huge number of people who've been persuaded to get that degree whowould otherwise not, have encumbered themselves with huge debts.

Hmm. So you're saying that more education is good, just so long that the inescapable consequences of supply and demand don't dilute the value of the degree of those that got into the market early--bought low, so to speak. And that the grants are ok, but not for the people who can't afford them? wtf?

[Perry Winkle]

I'm torn on the degree issue. I think the more people that have the opportunity the better. Though I don't think anyone should feel obligated to get a degree.

I only went and completed school because "that's the good and proper thing to do." And now I want to go on for even more education.

I actually think having the market value of a degree fall is a good thing. It just means that the baseline educational level of our population is rising. The bad thing is that academic standards are also being lowered.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by grant

--snip--
I actually think having the market value of a degree fall is a good thing.

ahem. I guess i forgot to raise my sarcasm flag, grant. Degrees have a market value, I agree. But having more of them doesn't dilute their value. I don't include bogus degrees in this equation. Those are crimes of a different color.

Originally Posted by grant

It just means that the baseline educational level of our population is rsing. The bad thing is that academic standards are also being lowered.

These are two different things. They have no causal relationship. The "meaning" you mention--I'm not buying it if you're selling it as a package deal. More (valid) degrees means more educated people and more knowledge as a whole. This is completely good.

Academic standards aren't static inert objects. When they're lowered dramatically, or arbitrarily, or improperly, it is a bad thing. Just decouple those two thoughts, and we're right in synch.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by grant

I actually think having the market value of a degree fall is a good thing. It just means that the baseline educational level of our population is rising. The bad thing is that academic standards are also being lowered.

Depends on what your degree is in. The goal is to pick something that will be marketable for years after you finish.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The goal is to pick something that will be marketable for years after you finish.

I don't believe that at all. I mean that's what most people think, but most people also think that going to Uni is supposed to teach you how to do something. Which is not true; if you want skill training go to a technical or professional school.

What students should pursue is something they're passionate about, not what will, in theory, make them the most bank. Unless the student doesn't mind doing something they might hate for the next 30-40 years.

A Bachelor's degree is just about enough time and effort for many people to figure out what they're passionate about, if they're lucky.

My unpopular opinion for this post: Law and Medicine are no worse or better fields than Plumbing; they all require technical qualifications.

[melidasaur]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Depends on what your degree is in. The goal is to pick something that will be marketable for years after you finish.

Unfortunately, people confuse marketable with profitable - and many students choose majors based on where they will make the most bucks. Nothing wrong with that, but you end up with professionals who have no passion for their profession but more passion for the bottom line. Hence why there are too many lawyers and doctors.

And I can gripe about too many lawyers... I am one and wish that there were less of them to deal with!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

There's an idea floating around Whitehall at the moment to introduce some kind of check on university applicants to see if their parents have a degree.....idea being to try and increase the number of kids from lower income/less educated households getting into uni. Fucking studid idea if ever I heard one. Please for God's sake someone shoot our PM. Y'know we used to have a really good uni system over here. Any student who wanted to go to uni and had the a-levels to get in, was entitled to a grant to assist with living expenses and their tuition fees were covered by the state. It worked. It only stopped working when people got this idea that half the population should be attending university......brilliant...now a degree is worth what an a-level used to be and will just about get you a job in middle-management. Meanwhile the huge number of people who've been persuaded to get that degree whowould otherwise not, have encumbered themselves with huge debts.

Well that sounds exactly like a form of Afirmative Action to me.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

There's an idea floating around Whitehall at the moment to introduce some kind of check on university applicants to see if their parents have a degree.....idea being to try and increase the number of kids from lower income/less educated households getting into uni. Fucking studid idea if ever I heard one.

~snip

There is a question on the FAFSA asking level of education completed by parents. We don't use it. Some states and institutions have aid for the first-generation college student.

Sigh...today I heard a woman complaining about one of our pell policies, stating she didn't know about it because she's a single mother. Freaking WHAT? For one thing, she signed the damn office app saying she read and understood all policies (and this policy is a big deal so it's written not only in our policies and procedures manual but everywhere else we can find some space to publish it.) And what the hell does her single mothering have to do with it anyway? I would have handed her a condom and sent her on her merry way. Poor downtrodden girl.

[DanaC]

Hmm. So you're saying that more education is good, just so long that the inescapable consequences of supply and demand don't dilute the value of the degree of those that got into the market early--bought low, so to speak. And that the grants are ok, but not for the people who can't afford them? wtf?

No. I am saying that in the drive to ensure more people go to university (as opposed to , say, technical college or polytechnics) every higher education establishment has been turned into a university and every conceivable subject is available at degree level (e.g a degree in hospitality). The problem with grants is that they have been replaced with loans. I absolutely subscribe to the idea that students attending higher education (whether that be for a degree or a diploma) should have a grant as they did up until about 15 years ago. Because now a degree or diploma is necessary for many entry level jobs where it wasn't before, more people are attending to get such degrees/diplomas this has been used as a justification for saying that the country cannot afford to give them all a grant therefore the grant has been replaced with loans. Now anybody who wants to seek a higher education has to either accept that they will be saddled with huge amounts of debt, or be lucky enough to come from a family with wealth enough to fund them. Fifteen years ago a working class kid could go to university or polytechnic if they had the a-level grades for the course and be sure that they would have just about enough to live on whilst they were in their course without incurring substantial debts.....it was, and is, free to attend college for a-levels if you are under 18 or unemployed. Unfortunately those a-levels are now worthless for anything other than entry to university level courses. Time was a couple of a-levels was the qualification needed for many entry level management type jobs. You could get a job as a researcher at a t.v company with three decent a-levels: now they won't even look at you unless you have a degree.

I love the idea of more people seeking education.....but not because it's the only way to get a decent job. I love the idea of more working class kids going to university....but not so they can do a degree in beauty therapy. We are selling these kids short, and charging them a fortune.

As for the idea of checking whether or not applicants to university have university educated parents.....I should have explained that in more detail: the idea is that in order to strike the correct balance between those people who are from an advantaged background and those who aren't, universities should check whether or not their applicants' parents have a degree...this would mean that if your parents had a degree you may end up being refused a place. This would be regardless of your parents actual economic status or your actual advantages in life...the fact that your parents have a degree would place you in a particular category. So, all those workingclass people who struggled and went to university when they were young but never got more than an average wage at the end of it would be treated the same as the wealthy families for whom a degree is a standard accoutrement.

[Undertoad]

Awesome. We here in the USA would like to remind our denied British applicants -- no, I say, friends -- that our universities are open to their applications. We are looking for the best and brightest to join our society. For some, it will be substantially financially rewarding. You may match the diversity needs and receive financial aid as well. Please forward applications to Shawnee123.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

You may match the diversity needs and receive financial aid as well. Please forward applications to Shawnee123.

HEY! I just saw this and all I can say is

[DanaC]

*chuckles*

I might say at this point that the idea of scanning applicants on those grounds is only a suggestion right now. Blair is desperately peddling about looking for a legacy......anything to blanket out the Iraq debacle......so tres bizarre ideas are suddenly gaining currency atthe moment. Watch this space.

As a local Labour politician I probably shouldn't say stuff like that....but hey I'm amongst friends right?