Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Have you guys got the new doctor yet? (David Tennant) or are you still on the 9th doctor? (Chris Eccleston)

We're not on either one at the moment. 9th has been over for months, but 10th hasn't started yet.

[headsplice]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

"Moral equivalance" says that someone using deadly force to defend themselves from an attack is "just as bad" as the attacker; i.e. "everyone is wrong".

Moral equivalence
It isn't bullshit at all.
An analogy: my neighbor and I have been fighting over a property line for years. His son comes over and attacks my daughter. Now, I would certainly be justified in beating the crap out of him or even potentially killing him while he was in the middle of the attack. However, there is NO WAY that I'd be justified in shooting my neighbor's other son two days later. That isn't defense, it's retribution.
It's an analogy, so I know it doesn't describe the situation properly; so let's take a step back and remove the morality of Israeli responses from the situation because we aren't going to convince each other that we're right.
Are Israeli responses effective in reducing the number of people who wish harm on them? Isn't that the ultimate test of whether an response is worth continuing?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by headsplice

Now, I would certainly be justified in beating the crap out of him or even potentially killing him while he was in the middle of the attack.

It still is "in the middle of the attack". It's no longer "in the middle of the attack" when the attacks stop.

Which they haven't.

Originally Posted by headsplice

Are Israeli responses effective in reducing the number of people who wish harm on them?

They are effective in eliminating the individuals who have been caught at it. That they breed quickly (there are thousands of schools devoted to turning children into new career terrorists) isn't exactly a reason to quit.

Damn, that's the worst case of "blame the victim" I've ever seen: "I don't think your defense is effective, so you should give up."

[JayMcGee]

ah, suddenly it clicks......

All along, there was me thinking maggiel was argueing the polictics of this one...

Originally Posted by MaggieL

"That they breed quickly (there are thousands of schools devoted to turning children into new career terrorists) isn't exactly a reason to quit. "

and all the time it was mere racism.....

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by JayMcGee

ah, suddenly it clicks......
and all the time it was mere racism.....

Oh, it's the liberal "racism" card.

Again. What a load of hooey.

Do you think that herring of yours is red enough to distract from the terrorist indoctrination those kids get from the time they're old enough to have a toy suicide bomber vest put on them? (After all, why wait until they're in a madrassa?)

[headsplice]

How is it that I got turned into an anti-Semite? Oh right. By pointing out how they're part of the continuing the cycle of violence.
Neither side are victims in this stupid little play. The Islamists and Israelis both actively take measures to provoke each other, like to two siblings riding in the car on vaca.

[Ibby]

Actually, as often as I disagree with Maggie, she's got a very valid point on this one... they DO indoctrinate their children and train them as the next generation of suicide-murderers.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

And when it's considered Hezbollah's entire strategy consisted of nothing but crimes against humanity, their moral bankruptcy becomes starkly clear, and the Israelis start looking angelic. It's not frightfully good strategy to show you value Lebanese lives at seven cents apiece, the price of one burlap sandbag. Polymer sandbags come even cheaper, at three cents per. Yet we can expect nothing else of substance from the anti-zionist/-semite hotheads of the Arab world. Massed bigots tend to reinforce each other. In the name of a decent world, reduce that mass.

[Hippikos]

and the Israelis start looking angelic.

Yeah right, even the US is now investigating the use of their cluster bombs by Israel in the latest phase of the war when talks of a cease fire was in the final stages. Which of course is the mother of hypocrisy, for what other purpose do you use cluster bombs as to harm the population?

Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye?"

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the splinter in your brother's eye, and not notice the beam which is in your own eye?"

Because I can tell the difference between a splinter and a beam, and am able to discern which is in whose eye.

Which is more than I can say for some people.

[Hippikos]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Because I can tell the difference between a splinter and a beam, and am able to discern which is in whose eye.

Which is more than I can say for some people.

I presume you refer to UG, who mentioned "angelic"?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

I presume you refer to UG, who mentioned "angelic"?

You can presume quite a bit. You might consider quoting the entire sentence, even though one word out of context suits your purpose better.

It's just funny to hear the verse from Matthew quoted by the moral equivilance experts. I guess once you take the plunge, it's not a big leap from moral equivalance to moral inversion: the terrorists are not only no worse than their victims, they're actually morally superior.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

for what other purpose do you use cluster bombs as to harm the population?

Originally Posted by fas.org

The BLU-97/B Combined Effects Bomb (CEB), effective against armor, personnel and material...

I think we can consider rocket launchers aimed randomly into civilian populations to be "material".

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I think we can consider rocket launchers aimed randomly into civilian populations to be "material".

And then we apply reality. Those air attacks occurred long after the unguided (mostly irrelevant) rocket was launched AND long after the launchers had left. Second, Israeli pilots (asking that their identities not be included) noted how they could not see a rocket launcher even with a rocket on it. They were simply attacking (bombing) in the area that a rocket was reported launched (obvious another example of ineffective air power without boots on the ground). So they dropped cluster bombs in a large civilian area. No problem. They are all Arabs and therefore must be evil.

MaggieL forgets the reality. Pilots could not attack those rocket launchers. So the idea was to attach Lebanese civilians - including those in the most northern Lebanon province of Akkar. Clearly that also would stop rocket launching.

Cluster bombs can be used on military targets if Hezbollah had tanks and artillery. Obviously Hezbollah provides almost no useful targets for cluster bombs - " a matter of “consciousness”. " Cluster bombs were civilian terrorist weapons. Civilians attacked even in northern Akkar and south of the Latani River for same reasons.

The Economist defined why cluster bombs would be advocated against innocent civilians by a 'them is evil' general staff:

Victory is not a matter of seizing territory, Dan Halutz once explained. It is a matter of “consciousness”. ...
the seductive idea that air power can provide swift victory with light casualties has been around almost as long as the aeroplane itself. ...
And as others besides the Israelis have found, trying to wage an air campaign against irregular forces is especially vulnerable to the backlash that invariably arises as civilian casualties mount.

So why bomb innocent Lebanese even in most northern Akkar province? Why use cluster bombs when targets just don't exist? " a matter of “consciousness”. " As if cluster bombs would cause Lebanese to blame Hezbollah. As predictable, the reverse has occurred. Cluster bombs on civilian did not cause Lebanese to rise up against Hezbollah.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

MaggieL forgets the reality.

This is another example of that element of tw's style I referred to earlier. HIs opinions are "facts", and his interpretation is "reality". I'm sure those killed by the Hezbollah bombardment will be comforted by the fact that they died in an attack that was "mostly irrelevant".

We'll have to get tw a t-shirt with that Adam Savage quote on it. I was so disppointed to learn Adam didn't originate it though.