05-04-2009, 08:24 PM | #166 | ||
Franklin Pierce
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
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This video brings very little to the discussion.
First, he made some very big assumptions, the largest being that the Japanese would continue to have the will and resources to fight. Second is that the views of military leaders represent the views of the country. Third, while not an assumption, is never mentioning the fact that the Soviet Union would have an extraordinary effect on the Pacific Theater. First, what evidence does the speaker bring to conclude that the Japanese would have kept on fighting? That death tolls were rising the closer the US forces got to Japan and a few specially selected quotes from hardcore military leaders? First I will give a quote of my own by the Emperor after the battle of Okinawa, "I was told that the iron from bomb fragments dropped by the enemy was being used to make shovels. This confirmed my opinion that we were no longer in a position to continue the war." Second, here is a view of their economic standing at the time. "The destruction of the Japanese merchant fleet, combined with the strategic bombing of Japanese industry, had wrecked Japan's war economy. Production of coal, iron, steel, rubber and other vital supplies were only a fraction of their pre-war levels." Third, it is also documented that Stalin deceived the Japanese into believing that the Soviets would help a peace agreement so they could gain land. It is also documented that the Japanese looked to the Soviets for peace. Another quote from Japanese ambassador to Moscow. "His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland." Fourth, it is finally documented that the Japanese even tried to reach a direct peace agreement with the United States. Quote:
(I'm not sure how reliable this source is but I have read this in books getting this information from first hand sources) So basically, the idea that Japan would never have surrendered is complete bullshit. Japan was looking to surrender under the conditions that they could keep the monarchy while Truman and the allies would only accept unconditional surrender. This past argument was a while ago so I don't entirely remember what I believed at the time but I think it was the point that many lives could have been saved if conditional surrender was sought instead of unconditional. There was a large divide among the Japanese at the time, though saying that, it could have gone either way. But from the sources, it seems like at least some of the Japanese leadership were looking for surrender while it is also obvious that some were not as well. To add some further information regarding the video. The atomic bomb was not the sole factor for the surrender either. As mentioned earlier, Japanese had very little resources. Two, the Soviets invaded around the same time as the atomic bomb droppings and that would have tremendous effects on the Japanese. Third, after the Japanese surrender, some of the military leaders that were obsessed with making sure that the emperor did not surrender attempted a military coup on August 12 to the 15. That video is complete shit and only responded to elementary critiques of the atomic bomb dropping. To make it clear, I really don't have a strong opinion on this topic because I do realize the effects of the firebombing and it is extremely difficult to not go into that subject while talking about the atomic bomb but I do believe that Truman's pride and obsession with unconditional surrender led to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. I also do not believe this is uncommon among leaders. Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrend...an#cite_note-3
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05-04-2009, 09:05 PM | #167 |
Старый сержант
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Sure well cited and seems legit. Wiki is a good place to start. Vetted sources are harder to find. I'm only saying that to put myself across as a well studied man only citing wiki and internet sources is not working for the crowd I hang out with, nor is it working for me.
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05-05-2009, 01:08 AM | #168 | |||
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05-05-2009, 07:52 AM | #169 | |||
Franklin Pierce
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Location: Minnesota
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It is shown that the Japanese went to Soviet Union many times looking for peace and were extremely divided themselves on the issue. The point is that the Japanese would seem to accept conditional surrender but not unconditional. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_War_Council_(Japan) At the ending of the war, three wanted to surrender and three wanted to keep on fighting. Guess which ones were on which side. Quote:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchur...ration#Soviets
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05-06-2009, 02:31 AM | #170 | |||||
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The fuck it doesn't, it's got everything to do with it. It was a culture of followers, order takers, don't rock the boat, don't make waves. The Japs did what they were told without question.
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It's a long swim to Japan, the only way the Russians could have gotten there is if we moved them and that wasn't going to happen. They might have been able to get something going in '47, maybe even late '46, but not '45. End of the war.
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05-06-2009, 05:27 PM | #171 | |||||||
Franklin Pierce
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Unless you think that the leaders couldn't think from themselves. Which in case I must ask who was giving orders then? God? Quote:
It is not hard to see why the United States overtook the Japanese. Our resources, manpower, and economy was tenhold theirs. Quote:
Saying I want peace has a much different effect when you are planning on blindsiding someone versus you are on your back get your face smashed into the ground. The second has a 95% chance of being more sincere. Quote:
Just because information came from wikipedia doesn't mean it is false. Plus, I have most of my information from books that I cannot link too so I am doing the best I can without putting in unneeded time providing more reliable sources. Quote:
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