"She", not "he", guys

[classicman]

From a purely technical stand, I think Henry is correct.

Thankfully that is not the ONLY definition available.

[DanaC]

Even from a purely technical stand, I think Henry is at best partially correct. There's plenty of evidence to suggest a genetic component to gender and sexuality, as well as a chromosomal component to gender dysmorphia.

[DanaC]

And I still don't understand wtf he cares enough to start a whole thread about it, and when it becomes apparent that his opinion is causing offence and hurt he wouldn't just step away and leave the kid to be who she wants to be without being a total twat about it.

Whether his argument is technically valid or not (I happen to think not) he isn't arguing in a vacuum. He's talking about a real person here, with feelings that can be hurt.

You mentioned earlier Classic that this was a good opportunity to discuss and learn. Had this thread come from a kind place then I'd agree. But it manifestly comes from an unkind place.

He's a fucking bully. He's couching it in unemotional, logical argument but the whole purpose of this thread imo was to cause hurt to Ibby. The timing of it alone suggests that. It was in response to an argument in another thread where henry and others felt Ibbs wasn't practising what she preached about tolerance, with Klyde. This thread was started in the context of teaching Ibs a lesson and making her uncomfortable.

Bullying fuck.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

He's a fucking bully...whole purpose ...cause hurt... ...response to an argument ...Ibbs ... tolerance, ... teaching a lesson ... uncomfortable.
Bullying fuck.

I thought we covered all that already.
We were drifting away and turning THAT shit-storm into a positive open discussion.
thanks for dragging it back up & stirring the shit again.

[DanaC]

Right because Henry's last submission wasn't attacking Ibby at an identity level.

I got angry all over again.

[Sundae]

I never thought I'd miss MaggieL...

[Undertoad]

In my view: you're disturbed, disordered, and I'll not contribute to your delusion. I don't oppose you, but I won't stand with you.

The medical treatment for gender identity disorder is "harm reduction" which means hormone therapy and sex reassignment.

So: either it's physiological, or it's so deeply embedded in the psychology, that trying to "fix it" by insisting on coaxing away a "delusion" is more harmful to the subject.

Medicine appears to not agree with you Henry.

Also, time has shown me that pretty much all humans are disturbed and disordered. Only some of them can't help but show it. The only human not disturbed and disordered is glatt. Doctors are examining him to try to figure out how he became a highly grounded and normal individual.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The only human not disturbed and disordered is glatt. Doctors are examining him to try to figure out how he became a highly grounded and normal individual.

It's funny because it's true.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Right because Henry's last submission wasn't attacking Ibby at an identity level.

I got angry all over again.

And Ibs post before that wasn't attacking Henry?

They are both adults and can handle themselves. Let them work it out.
Sooner or later one will rise above and stop. (hopefully)

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by classicman

And Ibs post before that wasn't attacking Henry?

That depends on how you define 'attack' and whether that definition also includes responding to another's attack.

It's also on a very different level. Calling someone names and swearing at them is a very different thing to calling into question their whole sense of self.

Let's face it, it isn't exactly an uncommon feature of bullying to provoke the subject of it into retaliation and then let everybody blame them for 'attacking' or starting trouble.
[/quote]

They are both adults and can handle themselves. Let them work it out.
Sooner or later one will rise above and stop. (hopefully)

I sort of agree. But one is significantly younger than the other and has openly spoken of struggling with body dysmorphia. This kind of shit is not helpful. And yes, Ibbs walks into it sometimes. But I remember 21. For all the strident, self-righteous certainty I expressed and indeed felt, at another level I was only just an adult and self-certainty was new and fragile.

Ibbs can absolutely handle herself. But that doesn't mean there isn't damage dealt along the way. And no amount of insults to Henry can offer the same potential for hurt and harm as his denial of Ibb's sense of self might.

Ok. You're right though. I am not making things better. And we are going round in circles anyway.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder#Treatment"]Also, time has shown me that pretty much all humans are disturbed and disordered. Only some of them can't help but show it. The only human not disturbed and disordered is glatt. Doctors are examining him to try to figure out how he became a highly grounded and normal individual.

I just got back from being away for a few days, and was slogging my way through this long thread, following the ebbs and flows of it and really got a chuckle out of this last bit.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That depends on how you define 'attack' and whether that definition also includes responding to another's attack.

BS - Who struck first? Its tit for tat now and will never end. AND you are helping.

Let's face it, it isn't exactly an uncommon feature of bullying to provoke the subject of it into retaliation and then let everybody blame them for 'attacking' or starting trouble.

and another tangent ... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

This kind of shit is not helpful.

And you think you are helping? Not from here you aren't. The thread was heading into another direction of open discussion NOT on them.
And you keep bringing it back. Lemme put it this way - stop helping.

But one is significantly younger than the other... [then]
Ibbs can absolutely handle herself.

Then STFU and lets ALL move on.

Ok. You're right though. I am not making things better. And we are going round in circles anyway.

Agreed - I probably should have read this part before responding... oh well.
:p

[DanaC]

Who struck first? I'd say the person who started a thread about gender identity aimed specifically at an individual with gender issues.

[DanaC]

And now....I'll stfu and move on.

[classicman]

good.