I Miss Bush

[footfootfoot]

Yeah, well I'm gonna trot this out again, we live in a socialist country, All the corporate risk is socialized and the profit is privatized.

Socialism only for corporations is ok, but don't cut the hoi polloi any slack

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

[eta] My own personal opinion is that those things necessary to survival and basic human dignity should not be seen as 'rewards'. They are a starting point.

But now don't you think you are adjusting the model to fix your own personal opinion? Because any idealist could put anything they want into that opinion as you define it. If I think some form of person transportation is necessary to my survival then someone else should provide it to me. And if I don't think I make enough money to get those things that I think I should have, for what ever reason, then someone else (the government) should provide it for me. And the government should be available in selected cases to do that. But for the majority of situations it should be a stop gap, not a means to an end.

[tw]

Apparently I have been drinking too much coffee (the gateway drug). Still, this is an excellent statement.

Originally Posted by SamIam

Arguing the finer points of socialism with UG is like trying to discuss atheism with the Spanish Inquisition.

Why? Because Glenn Beck said it.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

But now don't you think you are adjusting the model to fix your own personal opinion? Because any idealist could put anything they want into that opinion as you define it. If I think some form of person transportation is necessary to my survival then someone else should provide it to me. And if I don't think I make enough money to get those things that I think I should have, for what ever reason, then someone else (the government) should provide it for me. And the government should be available in selected cases to do that. But for the majority of situations it should be a stop gap, not a means to an end.

Try being unable to afford a car and living in a town with no public transportation. Uncle Sam doesn't owe me or anyone else a car, but some sort of public transit is invaluable to the population at large for any number of reasons.

Various groups still adhere blindly to the dogma that the US is the land of opportunity and anyone who works hard enough can obtain entrance to the upper middle class, no matter what their background. Certainly, its possible to work hard and live better here than in many other less fortunate countries.

But the "land of opportunity - fields of waving grain" construct died with the passing of the 19th century. In the 1800's an immigrant could land in New York and make his way West to claim 160 acres of land at little or no cost, work hard, and create a new life for himself. No more.

Today our resources are finite and our society is stratified. A child brought up in the semi-war zone of the urban housing projects simply does not have access to the quality of education and opportunities that a child of upper middle class parents living in a gated community does. I continue to be amazed that there are people who argue otherwise.

I don't expect the government to provide me with silk underware and a 60 inch flatscreen TV. However, a society which provides it children with a good education, basic health care and the food to mature into healthy adults is making a very wise investment that will pay off in terms of increased worker productivity and greater economic well-being.

If you don't believe this, take a visit to the city of Receife (pop one million plus) in northern Brazil where I once lived. Only children of the well to do go to school. The rest run in packs on the streets, always hungry, often suffering chronic disease, and poorly clothed. Girls 10 years of age or younger resort to prostitution - the only work available. The Brazilian government either cannot or will not intervene on the behalf of the country's children or its adult citizens. If you want a road to your house, you build it yourself. If you want security for your home or neighborhood, you hire private thugs. Its a libertarian's dream, but its not mine.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Try being unable to afford a car and living in a town with no public transportation. Uncle Sam doesn't owe me or anyone else a car, but some sort of public transit is invaluable to the population at large for any number of reasons.

So isit a Right that you are owed to some form of public transportation? The majority of cities and towns in the US do not have one. The days of a RR station for every city and town are long gone.

Various groups still adhere blindly to the dogma that the US is the land of opportunity and anyone who works hard enough can obtain entrance to the upper middle class, no matter what their background. Certainly, its possible to work hard and live better here than in many other less fortunate countries.

But the "land of opportunity - fields of waving grain" construct died with the passing of the 19th century. In the 1800's an immigrant could land in New York and make his way West to claim 160 acres of land at little or no cost, work hard, and create a new life for himself. No more.

How would you explain the success of the Chinese or Korean grocery store in many black dominated areas of the inner city? How about the success of the Cuban-Americans in Miami?

Today our resources are finite and our society is stratified. A child brought up in the semi-war zone of the urban housing projects simply does not have access to the quality of education and opportunities that a child of upper middle class parents living in a gated community does. I continue to be amazed that there are people who argue otherwise.

I would agree completely. And the sooner that we all recognize that society is stratified the sooner we can stop with all the class warfare and attempts at wealth redistribution.

I don't expect the government to provide me with silk underware and a 60 inch flatscreen TV. However, a society which provides it children with a good education, basic health care and the food to mature into healthy adults is making a very wise investment that will pay off in terms of increased worker productivity and greater economic well-being.

I would agree. To bad we don't live in a utopia. Because we have been throwing money at those issues and they have improved marginally at best.

[quotet]If you don't believe this, take a visit to the city of Receife (pop one million plus) in northern Brazil where I once lived. Only children of the well to do go to school. The rest run in packs on the streets, always hungry, often suffering chronic disease, and poorly clothed. Girls 10 years of age or younger resort to prostitution - the only work available. The Brazilian government either cannot or will not intervene on the behalf of the country's children or its adult citizens. If you want a road to your house, you build it yourself. If you want security for your home or neighborhood, you hire private thugs. Its a libertarian's dream, but its not mine.[/quote]I have been to plenty of Third World countries. Thank God we don't live in one.

[SamIam]

Public transit, universal education, fire and police protection, etc. are not rights. They are sound investments that a society makes in its own well being.

Those who benefit from our current system, yet complain about paying for it suffer from a narcissistic world view at best. "I've done great. The rest of you are on your own."

Immigrants from other countries who make good here are by definition largely members of the middle class in their own countries and/or have useful connections in the US. Our immigration laws ensure this.

The spunky oriental immigrant who hits the big time in the ghetto is largely a myth. And for everyone like him, there is a woman from Thailand who comes here and opens up a "massage parlor' where sex is sold in the back room. She eventually becomes caught up in the legal system and costs the local taxpayers thousands.

Individual annecdotes are a dime a dozen. They are fun to relate, but useless for implementing policy.

The term "throwing money at" is shop worn and was a questionable analogy from the start. Schools in poor and rural areas have been underfunded for decades if not forever. No tycoons from the exclusive side of town come through and throw dimes at kids in the ghetto. I have yet to see a wealthy matron from Denver's posh Cherrycreek neighborhood travel out here to the small and very distressed town of Paradox, Colorado to endow a new school library filled with comic books.

The only thing Congress throws money at are special interests (wealthy campaign contributors) and its own boondoggles.

As for the third world, the US is working on joining it.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Public transit, universal education, fire and police protection, etc. are not rights. They are sound investments that a society makes in its own well being.

At what cost and to what end?

Those who benefit from our current system, yet complain about paying for it suffer from a narcissistic world view at best. "I've done great. The rest of you are on your own."

And like others here, I hear another cry along the lines of class envy. I do agree with what you are saying, they should charge higher rider fees to make it work better.

Immigrants from other countries who make good here are by definition largely members of the middle class in their own countries and/or have useful connections in the US. Our immigration laws ensure this.

I agree. Yet those who live here and have all the same advantages and in fact more advantages and connections still can't do as well. Why do you think that is?

The spunky oriental immigrant who hits the big time in the ghetto is largely a myth. And for everyone like him, there is a woman from Thailand who comes here and opens up a "massage parlor' where sex is sold in the back room. She eventually becomes caught up in the legal system and costs the local taxpayers thousands.

Yet they are making a dollar and completely support themselves. I would support the legalization of prostitution like it is in NV.

Individual annecdotes are a dime a dozen. They are fun to relate, but useless for implementing policy.

Damm right. Which is why I am tired of hearing the politicians telling me another story about "Betty Johnson from Bumbfuck USA" and how because of one party or the other has been screwed by the system. It only contributes to more class envy and warfare.

The term "throwing money at" is shop worn and was a questionable analogy from the start.

BS, it is not about some "wealthy matron" tossing dimes, it is about the billions wasted by state and federal governments on throwing money at failing schools.

The only thing Congress throws money at are special interests (wealthy campaign contributors) and its own boondoggles.

As for the third world, the US is working on joining it.

Agreed and agreed.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And like others here, I hear another cry along the lines of class envy.

You mean because I'm currently on disability, my viewpoint is skewed? My eyes have certainly been opened due to the events of the past 10 years, I'll grant you that. But I had a solid middle class upbringing, was fortunate enough to earn an advanced college degree and spent most of my career in a professional position. Other than a brief flirtation with your pal, Ayn Rand, at age 17, I am a life long humanist. I owe my outlook to intelligence, enlightened self-interest, and compassion.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

You mean because I'm currently on disability, my viewpoint is skewed?

Absolutely not!

My eyes have certainly been opened due to the events of the past 10 years, I'll grant you that. But I had a solid middle class upbringing, was fortunate enough to earn an advanced college degree and spent most of my career in a professional position. Other than a brief flirtation with your pal, Ayn Rand, at age 17, I am a life long humanist. I owe my outlook to intelligence, enlightened self-interest, and compassion.

Congrats, and you're posts reflect your depth of experience. This was nothing personal. It was a comment on what people's perceptions are about the role of the federal government and how much they should take from others to support bloated and inefficient systems that continually fail the electorate.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by SamIam

....A child brought up in the semi-war zone of the urban housing projects simply does not have access to the quality of education and opportunities that a child of upper middle class parents living in a gated community does.....

But it does provide a place to dump sex-offenders.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Turning to Sam's particular situation and considering a fix: how big and flat is that town, there on the "Edge of the Land of Enchantment?" Bicycles are easier to afford than cars -- and give practicable mobility to about a 15- to 20-mile radius, coupled with a flexibility no mass transit could possibly match, which taken together I think somewhat shrinks the field for grousing and bitching. But if that disability thing means legs no good or eyes not so good, a bicycle is still no solution -- dang.

Speaking of bitching: tw, the man who categorically despises and damns Glenn Beck is a man who categorically despises and damns the stuff and breath of life itself. Beck believes in capitalism, hence in life. You? No, not so much. Never did, AFAIK. That's why ol' Glenn is a happier man than you are.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Maybe he's happier because they're paying him 30 or 40 million a year for his dramatics.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by BigV

When I am being condescended to, I consider the source. If it is one that is worthy of my respect, then I reflect on my own behavior and attitudes, searching for what is in me that warranted such communication. You imply with your remarks that I am being stupid, stupid enough to embarrass myself.

This is multiply erroneous:

1 -- I am not stupid. Nor are my posts here evidence of stupid. I would agree that engaging you in this kind of serious fashion is borderline stupid, and quixotic at best.

2 -- In practically every area where we have social intercourse, but most especially regarding politics and human relations, you are not a source worthy of my respect. This makes my self check very quick, practically moot. Your remarks do not hurt me. Your opinion of me is a matter of monumental indifference to me. You have show over a very long time that you do not care for me, or for the other dwellars here. It is precisely because of this long established behavior that your rebukes like this do not sting. All of your comments like this therefore have have no corrective power. They rise only to the level of irritating noise.

So, you are right, I do know what to do. I will filter out such noise so I can continue to focus on the communication here, offered by those dwellars that are worthy of my respect.

Well, V, after a couple of days for thought, this is what I've got.

There is no obligation upon me to respect that which is stupid. There is instead an obligation to challenge it. Showing certain of the more mulish anticonservative bigots the error of their thinking is sometimes like explaining anal sex to an echidna: certain referents seem to be wholly lacking.

It is not the persons, in essence, that I disdain, but the collectivist, aye socialist, ideals and the stupid ideas the ideals engender which I disparage, deprecate, blast and damn severally and collectively. I am a man of freedom, and unfreedom is a worthless abomination which helps millions to stunted lives and premature deaths. He who would reduce liberty is your enemy and mine, and your children's also, regardless of his -- or Michelle O's -- intentions at the outset. It is a thing that turns Earth into Camazotz.

The only known way to introduce socialism into the social order of the United States is to insist at every turn that it is not socialism. How many here are buying that denial? Does that sound a) smart, or b)not smart?

Taking me seriously involves taking virtue seriously. V is telling me he has great difficulty with taking me seriously, apparently because he finds me abrasive, and I am not going to deny being abrasive for a moment. He may also say abrasiveness erodes virtue. Mm -- it could if it's used wrongly. Too, a virtuous life, value given to virtue, a virtuous philosophy of life and being -- these are things that reproach those pseudosophisticates who think a good life can be lived without virtue, on the grounds that virtue is "not modern, not with-it."

Well, I hang out on another BBS, the Armour Archive, where a good many 21st-century people make a big thing, and a good thing, of virtue. They are the sort of people who would not seek in the State a surrogate parent. That's a thing which is bad for both parents and state -- and it bleeds the economy to anemia.

V, I have never thought you stupid, nor warped like two or three Dwellars I could name. I do have to work to keep you and xoxoBruce straight, so similar are your writing styles and philosophies -- I hope never to mix up which of you said what, and I figure the two of you would get along ever so well on a long road trip or a Carnival Lines cruise. I have held for years the opinion your heart stays in the right place, even if your head does not always. I hold that belief now.

You should not confuse an inclination to pout at me for annoying you with a matter of respect, though. There, you're kidding yourself. You can neither diminish me nor build up yourself by sneering. If you flee from me, you cut yourself off from something good that I have and you may never have sought: the pursuit of that virtue which makes a life worth the having lived it.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Maybe he's happier because they're paying him 30 or 40 million a year for his dramatics.

Or put another way, well pleased he can command that in the infotainment market -- and out of which he employs staff also. But there's the dawning of self-worth that he speaks of often -- his road back up from the depths of alcoholism. It's a good thing, to hit bottom -- and not to stay there. He found drink ruined his mind and his soul. Coulda shot himself.

There is no opinion-show host that doesn't engage in dramatics. They vary in degree, yes -- but when advocating, you must also persuade. That's sales: you must convey and transfer enthusiasm.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Oh drink did it, I wondered about that.