Who Supports the War(s)

[Radar]

Every time you spread misinformation and lie about the Patriot Act, FISC, or hinder our Government's ability to protect and keep US safe, you are, by proxy, infringing upon the Right To Life of 3,000+ American citizens.

Let's share some truthful information about the so-called Patriot act. It's the most blatantly unconstitutional piece of legislation in the history of the united states. It practically erases the 4th amendment, it allows the government to spy on our own people even though they are not allowed to do that in the constitution. It's a violation of everything that America stands for. If you support the patriot act you support terrorism against Americans.

The patriot act doesn't defend anyone's "right to life". It UNCONSTITUTIONALLY infringes on the rights that make our lives worth living.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

[hermit22]

Originally posted by Radar


Actually Canada pays more money for their healthcare than America and they get substandard healthcare for their money.

Hmm. Last figures I saw showed that the United States spends 14% of the GDP on health care, while Canada only spends 7% of theirs on health care.

[Radar]

According to this website the percentage of the GDP spent on healtcare is 9.3%

Let's use this FACTBOOK the GDP per capita in Canada when adjusted for purchase parity is $27,700. When we take 9.3% of the GDP per capita we get $2695.21 per individual per year on healthcare. That comes out to $224.60 per month. Most Americans pay half this amount if they've got a job that has healthcare and dental insurance. Even less if there's a family plan.

So yes, Canadians pay more money for healthcare, and they've got substandard healthcare when compared to America which has the best doctors on earth. Thank god for Capitalism. (not that I believe in god)

[Cam]

Then again the majority of Americans always have to worry about their insurance companies, changing their policies or refusing to provide coverage in certain instances.

[Radar]

Then again the majority of Americans always have to worry about their insurance companies, changing their policies or refusing to provide coverage in certain instances.

That's the beauty of having a lot of insurance companies to choose from. It keeps most of them in check from going too crazy with what they charge and from changing benefits all the time.

Competition keeps costs down and services up. Healthcare is far too important to let government mess around with. So is retirement, charity, education, and many other things.

[hermit22]

Actually, I think healthcare is far too important to leave it to the free market. Just difference in philosophy I guess. Strictly free market philosophy seems, to me, to have failed, and that is precisely because companies raise their rates and lower their coverage, or risk going out of busines. In addition, there isn't really the free market choice when your job gives you the selection of only one health care company.

Also, people pay more than just their insurance rate for health care. There's also things like Medicare, co-pays, and prescription drug costs, and when your employer offers insurance, they have to pay the company a fee. I'm a healthy 23 year old, non-smoker, don't get sick, etc. and I pay $160 per month for just health insurance (no dental). When you throw in some of these additions, and substitute for a less healthy individual with more risk factors, I think the cost would be comparable, if not greater, than Canada's.

The other failing of our system is that I can't change jobs and retain my health insurance. Even if I could find a job that fits my schedule and offers insurance, the insurance wouldn't kick in for some length of time, often 90 days. So if I needed to change jobs like that, I would be hampered by my lack of health insurance. Or I might be only able to find a job that doesn't offer insurance. Either way, there would be a period of time where my insurance would be out unless I found a temporary solution elsewhere.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by hermit22
The other failing of our system is that I can't change jobs and retain my health insurance.

Actually, you can keep your insurance through COBRA, for up to 24 months, IIRC; however, you are responsible for the full cost of the insurance.

When I left my last permanent job a year ago, I was paying $17 a week through the company. When I left, I had the option of keeping it...at $269 a month.

:p

[slang]

I have an idea that many will surely hate.


Why dont more people scrap all this medical insurance nonsense and get a high deductable catastrophic insurance plan (that costs about 20 bucks a month) and take the extra money you would normally pay to the insurance assheads and put it into an acct you only use for catstrophic medical problems. If you need to see a doctor, pay cash. The doctor will probably charge you a lot less and give you only what you need, not what your plan will pay for. If he recommends something you must actually pay for you will have the money to pay for it, if it's really needed. If you have a catstrophic event. you're also covered by the plan.

Putting the responsibility on the individual also promotes better health habits. If you're going to smoke crack (or whatever will eventually kill or disable you) why in the fuck should I have to pay for your lack of common sense, self discapline or ignorance?

What does the current system encourage? Political bullshit. I dare say that the majority of people make themselves sick.

Earth to the American people.......take care of yourself....or the government will take charge of that too.

<B>Sure, I love to smoke, drink whiskey straight from the bottle, sit watching tv for years on end, eat nothing but KFC (with lotsa gravy) and run with scissors just as much as any other guy. The reality is though if you take care of yourself, chances are you wont be at the mercy of any health care policy. And then we can remove this bogus issue from the political table and move on to more important second ammendment issues.</B>

[warch]

COBRA is at least a net, but then your new policy may not cover any preexisting conditions. I know some people, diabetic, cancer survivors, who cannot take the risk of changing jobs. My brother in law is a frustrated doctor in Canada and I know full well that their system is far from perfect. But for low-income, small business, and self-employed persons such as the warch crew it looks pretty good. Ok, six month wait for maintenance treatment, vs in the US roll the dice and hit the emergency room when you blow. We have employer coverage now, but spent most of our 20s with no coverage. We lucked out in Texas by finding a doctor that would treat us on a way sliding scale or even barter. But it was always the (poor) fall back plan, if all went horribly wrong- pack up your bloody carcass and head for the border.

[elSicomoro]

Just a few of my personal thoughts on the concept of national healthcare:

--I live in the greatest country in the world. I'm willing to work hard, pay my taxes, and be the best American I can be. I'm entitled to be taken care of by my country, since I help take care of it.

--People who have health coverage may be more apt to go see a doctor when they do not feel well...rather than try to wait the illness out. This will get them on the road to recovery faster, and will result in more productivity, which helps the company work better, which helps the economy work better, etc.

--Regarding "healthy lifestyle" choices, everyone will pay for people's bad habits in the end, one way or another. In fact, people's bad habits actually help our nation. For example, without people dealing drugs and what not, there would be no DEA. Those people are employed thanks to stupid choices. Here in PA, had the tax on cigarettes not been raised, the commonwealth would be deeper in the red than it already is. Deep red means cuts in jobs, departmental budgets, etc. So light up smokers of the commonwealth! Your tax money just helped get a child get into a vital social services program.

[wolf]

I know, both personally and have seen news reports, of more than one Canadian who has come south to self-pay for procedures, up to and including cardiac bypass surgery. One of my mom's friend's granddaughters was here for arthroscopic knee surgery a couple years back.

Recently I've seen several news reports on doctors who are not accepting insurance for medical care --- straight pay only, and they've significantly reduced the amount of time they spend dealing with paperwork generated by the managed care system (which manages cost, incidentally NOT care ...) and are devoting that time to actual doctoring.

I spend a lot more of my day (evening) arguing with insurance companies than I do seeing patients. One thing that's good about my facility, though, is that we treat REGARDLESS of insurance status, and worry about how we're getting paid afterwards ... also, if we have a patient that we think need treatment, we admit, despite what some care manager in an offiice 1200 miles away thinks about the needs of someone they haven't even seen. We're usually successful on an appeal of the initial denial of care (okay PAYMENT for care), and if not we either get funding through the county or medical assistance or just eat the cost.

[warch]

I dare say that the majority of people make themselves sick.

Especially small kids. Eatting dirt and pickin' their noses and stuff.

[slang]

Originally posted by warch

Especially small kids. Eatting dirt and pickin' their noses and stuff.

Don't forget eatting dead frogs. They can't be left to eat these sorts of things.

I'm assuming you're bringing this to my attention as an exception, children. I'll agree that most kids arent responsible for their own cancer, chronic illness etc.

Do you agree that most adults make themselves sick?

[Undertoad]

Health too important to be left to the free market: what, like food, clothing and shelter?

Actually healthcare is not in the hands of the free market in the US. 50% of the healthcare is bought by the government to begin with. That screws up the market like no tomorrow.

If the first customer in the china shop is always a bull, the second customer ain't gonna get good prices or service.

[slang]

originally posted by Wolf

One of my mom's friend's granddaughter's neighbor's dog's owner's mechanic's second cousin's husband's college buddy's roomate's professor's assistant's dry cleaner's podiatrist's.....

forgive me. I think I'm funny