View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[classicman]

That has to be the most polite "fork off" I've ever read.
lol

[Sundae]

Dana - you are sworn off this thread, remember?
You can't do any good here.

[DanaC]

No. No you're quite right. This is not a good thread for me to be in.

[classicman]

This is the bestest threadest EVAH for you to be in.

[Undertoad]

Now that the Israel/Hamas cease-fire is on, what is Hamas doing? Going around shooting people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...prisal-attacks

Evidence is emerging of a wave of reprisal attacks and killings inside Gaza that have left dozens dead and more wounded in the wake of Israel's war.

Among the dead are Palestinians suspected of collaborating with the Israeli military. Others include criminals who were among the 600 prisoners to escape from Gaza City's main jail when it was bombed as the war began. Their attackers are thought to be their victims' relatives.

It's mob rule. It's also called, kill the moderates until only the extremists are left, a cult of blood and death, and the innocent people who are terrified by them.

One woman from near Zeitoun, south of Gaza City, described how masked men with ID cards showing they were members of the Izzedin al-Qassam Brigades, the Hamas armed wing, shot her brother in the legs. The family had fled the house but returned on 18 January, the first day of the Israeli ceasefire. At 8pm several gunmen appeared at the gate asking for her brother, a 36-year-old Fatah military intelligence officer who had not been working since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June 2007. The men searched the house for weapons, but found none and later left.

Early the next morning they returned. "They started firing in the air," said the 23-year-old sister, who declined to give her name for fear of further attacks.

"They asked him to put his hands up.They fired one shot into his left knee. He fell to the floor and started screaming and saying: 'I didn't do anything.'"

He was then shot in the right leg and again in the left. "They were holding us back and we were watching him bleeding," she said. The victim is now in a Cairo hospital after two operations on his legs.

She said several of his Fatah colleagues had been targeted: "It's a kind of revenge on Fatah. They thought they were responsible for what was going on in Gaza."

Separately, Hamas is believed to have stopped Palestinians reaching an Israeli field hospital on Israel's side of the border at Erez. "We don't care about it," said Hassan Khalaf, Hamas's deputy health minister.

The world demanded the end of Israel's occupation of Gaza. The world now has what it wanted. I'm not sure why the world doesn't think this blood is on their hands. It remains, as the Guardian says, "Israel's war". Hamas terrorism will not move Jimmy Carter, who believes that negotiation with Hamas is critical to the plan:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...298296434.html

The former US leader said there was "no way to have a permanent peace in the Middle East without the inclusion of Hamas".

"Hamas has got to be involved before peace can be concluded."

Carter said reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah, the faction led by Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, had been "objected to and obstructed by the US and Israel".

You got that? The US and Israel are responsible. Not Hamas shooting Fatah supporters in the kneecaps. Israel was responsible when it occupied, and now Israel is responsible when it has left.

And thus, unabated by any criticism, supported by all countries everywhere, violence the source of all Hamas' power... the shooting will continue.

[classicman]

sar/oh, poor Hamas. Its not their fault. They were forced to attack and kill them - don't you see it?/casm

[classicman]

He said, she said. Who struck first. They all need to STFU & start over like adults. There is so much friggin blame to go around its pointless to mention it.
The problem as some here have pointed out, is that they are teaching their children HATE.
Nothing will change until that does.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by classicman

He said, she said. Who struck first. They all need to STFU & start over like adults. There is so much friggin blame to go around its pointless to mention it.
The problem as some here have pointed out, is that they are teaching their children HATE.
Nothing will change until that does.

They are both teaching hate, by example.

It's like this, a prisoner from GITMO was released by the Bush administration awhile back, and now he is apparently an al qaeda leader in Yemen. This man had claimed he was innocent when he was captured, but he was detained for years, with no trial. So the question is, what if he actually WAS innocent, but because we detained him for so long (and probably tortured him), and he grew to hate us so much, did we actually create an al qaeda leader?

I see a very real resemblance here with us/Iraq and Israel/Palestine - big strong country with an army, fighting a resistance movement. Many Americans hate the Iraqi insurgency, but did we not create that hate ourselves, by our actions in THEIR country? (OK, so we are not colonizing or staying, but we are certainly occupying, and have in some cases acted atrociously.)

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

It's like this, a prisoner from GITMO was released by the Bush administration awhile back, and now he is apparently an al qaeda leader in Yemen. This man had claimed he was innocent when he was captured, but he was detained for years, with no trial. So the question is, what if he actually WAS innocent, but because we detained him for so long (and probably tortured him), and he grew to hate us so much, did we actually create an al qaeda leader?

Actually, we've gone over that one in detail here, and proved in two posts that he was a jihadi before capture, by his own words.

I see a very real resemblance here with us/Iraq and Israel/Palestine - big strong country with an army, fighting a resistance movement. Many Americans hate the Iraqi insurgency, but did we not create that hate ourselves, by our actions in THEIR country? (OK, so we are not colonizing or staying, but we are certainly occupying, and have in some cases acted atrociously.)

No. If you had noticed what the Iraqi insurgency used to do, before we crushed it, you would not be trying to develop this narrative.

They killed everybody, beheading the children and even shooting the livestock, and buried them in shallow graves.

It is once again the necessary violence of mob rule. The ones with the biggest guns and the will to use them against innocents, are the ones who get to run things. This is unacceptable and will only lead to more violence. The old policy was to support it if the end leader was friendly with the west. THAT is the corrupt ideology you should be fighting against as it only leads to more death and destruction.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Actually, we've gone over that one in detail here, and proved in two posts that he was a jihadi before capture, by his own words.

OK. I don't know whether he was or not, but that analogy still holds. We are creating terrorists by our actions.

No. If you had noticed what the Iraqi insurgency used to do, before we crushed it, you would not be trying to develop this narrative.

They killed everybody, beheading the children and even shooting the livestock, and buried them in shallow graves.

It is once again the necessary violence of mob rule. The ones with the biggest guns and the will to use them against innocents, are the ones who get to run things. This is unacceptable and will only lead to more violence. The old policy was to support it if the end leader was friendly with the west. THAT is the corrupt ideology you should be fighting against as it only leads to more death and destruction.

We never should have been there in the first place. We drew first blood. And I agree with your last statement, to the degree that we should not do business with governments that are corrupt and abuse their own people.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

OK. I don't know whether he was or not

No no, don't just gloss over that one because it hurts your approach. Think on a straight line here. We proved it by his own words. You now know that he was. This is an important data point.

, but that analogy still holds. We are creating terrorists by our actions.

That's a common notion, what is your proof of it?

We never should have been there in the first place. We drew first blood.

Then where are the Bosnian terrorists we created?

Where are the Panamanian terrorists we created?

Where are the Grenadan terrorists we created?

Where in holy hell are the Vietnamese terrorists we created? There had better be 500,000 of them, or your narrative is crashing and burning badly.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by classicman

He said, she said. Who struck first.

Lets look at the facts.

A six month ceasefire occurred on June 19th, 2008 between Israel and Hamas on the conditions that Hamas would stop firing rockets into Israel and Israel would allow humanitarian aid into Gaza, which is very much needed.

Lets look at the stats. The following is a graph showing rocket attacks into Israel from Gaza.



We can clearly see that Hamas made a very good attempt to stop rocket fire into Israel from the start of the ceasefire until November. The numbers on wikipedia say rocket fire dropped 98% and keep in mind their are other factions besides Hamas in Gaza and have taken responsibility for a few of those rocket fires while the others remain unclaimed.

On the other hand, during this time, humanitarian aid into Gaza increased only 20%. Yes, there are legitimate reasons for Israel to block off humanitarian aid but they did not live up to their side of the ceasefire as Hamas did.

Now that brings us to November, when rocket and mortar attacks increased dramatically. What happened during this period?

On November 4th, Israeli intelligence got hold of information saying that a kidnapping of an Israeli soldier was going to take place through a tunnel between Gaza and Israel. To prevent this, Israel when into Gaza and killed six militants. After this event, we can see a very sharp increase in rocket fire.

So with this information we can come to conclusions.

• Neither Israel nor Hamas truly respected or lived up to the ceasefire
• The reason for Hamas attacks are because of the blockade and siege. November 4th was a catalysis, but the ceasefire was obviously not going to last.
• Israel was the first to officially break the ceasefire. November 4th was a very big mistake on their part. This is also assuming Israeli intelligence was correct.

They all need to STFU & start over like adults. There is so much friggin blame to go around its pointless to mention it.The problem as some here have pointed out, is that they are teaching their children HATE.

Besides the irony of saying it is pointless to mention blame and then blaming Hamas for teaching children to hate, we really do need to change our method of viewing this situation. This problem can never be solved on moral philosophy, both sides will always think they are the morally correct side, and should be viewed as a power issue.

For example, the method of fighting by both Hamas and Israel should be seen as immoral but necessary because of the power disparity between the two sides. Hamas cannot fight with any other method besides the one they are doing now and Israel cannot either. To blame either side for their methods of fighting is pointless, idealistic, and will not solve anything. Neither side will change.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Lets look at the facts.

Besides the irony of saying it is pointless to mention blame and then blaming Hamas for teaching children to hate, we really do need to change our method of viewing this situation. This problem can never be solved . . .

Please retract that first statement as I intentionally did not specify Hamas at all. YOU read that into the post...interesting.

Your last line was best *BOLD MINE*

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Neither side will change.

Agreed

[classicman]

Yes, of course - every single entity that engages in war censors as much as possible - In fact most of what you hear that isn't censored is intentionally leaked and misleading.

[Shawnee123]

Wag the Dog.