Carter: America tortures

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Ali, just why do you suppose I might have it, hmm?

I'm not hearing enough enthusiasm for breaking the undemocrats, wiping away their legacy of oppression. As you know, it's dishonest to say I'm talking about Republican Party members.

I think it's a matter of perspective as to what constitutes humanities cause. That's why I think your way is only your opinion. I'm sure others share it (your opinion), but your way of solving the worlds problems doesn't match other people's way of doing it.

[TheMercenary]

1) Yes. But I think if it were done in a clandestine manner it would be very effective.

2) I think you already know the answer to it.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

2) I think you already know the answer to it.

Actually, I don't. What do you think it is?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Actually, I don't. What do you think it is?

Its because we need popular support and are expected to act justified and they don't. It would be like comparing a community known buisness owner who is in debt and a homeless man with no family in debt. The business man will not go to the extremes as the homeless man because he has much more to lose if caught while the homeless man probably doesn't have much if anything to lose, making him much more likely to go to dangerous extremes for the money.

If the United States starts torturing innocent people (*stands in front of Gitmo*) and we are found out, our support will plummet and people will very quickly turn against us while no one supports Al Qaeda so it doesn't matter what they do, everyone will still hate them.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If the United States starts torturing innocent people (*stands in front of Gitmo*) and we are found out, our support will plummet and people will very quickly turn against us while no one supports Al Qaeda so it doesn't matter what they do, everyone will still hate them.

If the goal in all of this is to "win the war on terror" (essentially a war on a mindset, a fight against an idea), wouldn't it stand to reason that we would want to appear in a light that would sway those on the middle ground to support our goals, to change their minds and move them away from extremist groups? Would we really be able to do this if populations in the countries we occupy/have bases/have conflicts in knew we were beating people for information? While "win any way possible" logic says they should, since everyone but the enemy would obviously want us to win the war by any means possible to alleviate their suffering, I really don't think "Torturing in Support of Democracy" has a ring to it that will instill pride and gain the support of people in middle eastern nations. Knowing a knock could come at your door and you might be swept off to some camp and waterboarded for months while your family thinks you're dead thanks to misinformation is not going to be well received. Those actions are associated with oppressive, feared dictators, not democratic peace keepers.

...and torture will not remain secret if used, just as it has not in this war so far, nor in any other war. The worst atrocities committed against human beings, the war crimes the US stands against and actively wants to stop, have always managed to come to light at some point. Want to keep it all a secret? Kill your captors, including the innocent ones that didn't have the information you were looking for.

If the reason to torture is to support the war, to end it faster, and that the ends justify the means, then we really need to think ahead to what the supposed final goal of this set of conflicts is: to end terrorism and support democracy. If we're going to use force to do this, then we need to do it right. Just as our military has evolved to fight these new battles against people that are not members of any army, it absolutely must evolve further to look to the long term consequences of its actions, how those actions are received by the people they effect, and what the response will be.

You can torture for information you think might save a life, but no one should be surprised when the ranks of terrorists/anti-US groups swell when the news spreads that the coming liberators will beat to within an inch of your life to get at information if they think you have it.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Honesty becomes a victim when political agendas are more important.

Ipse dixit, tw.

My spirit is to crush the Hitlers -- yours is to crush democracy -- and I applaud the wisdom of crushing and hanging Saddam before he was a Hitler-sized world problem. You don't see the Democrats being that wise, nor visibly desiring to. That is why I don't vote Democrat, and the last time I did was I don't know when in the previous century. They don't deserve any support.

Aliantha: Godwin's Law, darling!

[Aliantha]

From Wiki:

A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons

I think my statement was a valid comparison. I think you're misusing Godwins Law...darlink.

If you disagree, I guess we could always have a poll?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Not remotely misusing it, nor remotely valid either, as I cannot honestly be mistaken for a Nazi by anyone with a knowledge of Nazism and the steps leading to it. And my remark was more in the nature of a caution than an accusation. Tw's flirting with crossing that line too, but that's typical tw: always he opposes the success of the Republic in foreign policy. Ask him sometime if he wants us to win this, for the global Functioning Economic Core or anything else. He's very uniform about supporting anti-democracy over democracy. It's profoundly xenophobic if not just plain bigoted. It amounts to "less than democracy is good enough for those foreigners." G. Zuss. This guy's got a very manifest totalitarian streak. It's enough to make me talk like the Pharisee did about the tax collector.

[DanaC]

Not remotely misusing it, nor remotely valid either, as I cannot honestly be mistaken for a Nazi by anyone with a knowledge of Nazism and the steps leading to it.

Well. I have some knowledge of the steps leading to Nazism and also of what constitutes nazism, and I'd say the comparison is valid.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Well. I have some knowledge of the steps leading to Nazism and also of what constitutes nazism, and I'd say the comparison is valid.

So far it doesn't sound like it. People trying to call me a Nazi are doing so from so acute an ignorance of Nazism as to astonish.

[BigV]

UG, you only have a couple of themes.

The minor ones are cooking, language, drama, music. Minor not because these are unimportant human endeavors, but minor diversions from your major obsession: killing everyone who does not agree with you. I have to tell you, it's tiresome.

And you're such a pompous hypocrite about it. "I command you to be democratic or die." Look, friend, you don't speak for all humanity. Give it, and us, and yourself a rest.

[tw]

Originally Posted by BigV

UG, you only have a couple of themes.

The minor ones are cooking, language, drama, music.

UG has a dramtic flair for cooking human flesh with profane language? What kind of music goes with that?


Red wine or white?

[amybaby2020]

we all have different views, now one can speak on anyone elses behalf

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Actually, having experience of both democracy and nondemocracy, I do speak for all humanity, and you don't speak for anything human on this point, V. You should be the one giving it a rest. Don't defend the evilly indefensible unless it's your life's goal to get skinned for being a fascist sympathizer. No hypocrisy there, I assure you. The way you're using the word suggests you ought to repair to a dictionary and refamiliarize.

[DanaC]

Actually, having experience of both democracy and nondemocracy, I do speak for all humanity