Happy Tax Day!

[Whit]

Of course it's a cheap cop-out. By your logic a car doesn't exist, you might touch a fender, or a windshield but that isn't the car. It's not only a cop-out, it's a cheap, poor one at that. The only people that use lines like that are fantics, existentialists and people that want to argue but can't come up with something reasonable. Notice I said argue, not discuss.

Also, if the goverment doesn't exist, how can you revolt?
When you talk about war you're talking about a lot of innocent poeple dieing. You can say you're only killing the people that are seeking to illegaly dominate you, but those aren't the only people that will die. Also, you're setting yourself up as the one that will pass judgment on people. You are speaking of being the judge, jury and executioner. That is ultimately unamerican. You are talking about murder.

[Radar]

It doesn't matter what was written down on a piece of paper and called a constitution all those years ago, that was just a guidline, if the majority of people in the US decided that we don't have the right to bear arms then we won't have the right to bear arms. It's more complicated then that obviously but in the end majority does rule and it doesn't matter if you feel your right or not.

Cam, you seem unable to grasp the concept that people are born with rights. We don't get those rights from the government or from other people in our country. We're born with them and they can't be taken away from us or even given away. There are certain areas where the majority has no authority over individuals. And it absolutely matters what is written on the constitution and it's more than a "guideline". Laws aren't guidelines or the government wouldn't arrest people when they broke the law. The constitution is the highest law in the land and can't be crossed or none of our government is worth a thing. It's the foundation of our government and our law and if you mess with it, everything crashes around us.

One of the rights we're all born with is the right to live. And if we have a right to life, we have a right to defend that life any way we see fit and that includes the right to keep and bear arms even if every single person in America other than myself voted to eliminate gun ownership, it would still be my right and the law would be unconstitutional and illegal.

There are some areas where the majority doesn't rule and has no power. The people in America don't support income taxes. It's a far stretch of the imagination to suggest they do simply because they choose to do it out of the fear of going to jail. It would be like me putting a gun to your head and robbing you and saying, "He wanted to give me the money."

[Radar]

Also, if the goverment doesn't exist, how can you revolt?

I didn't say government doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist as a being with rights. "society" has no rights. Only individuals do. And government has no powers other than those specifically listed in the constitution. Government, like a corporation, is simply an organizational structure but not an actual being.

When you talk about war you're talking about a lot of innocent poeple dieing. You can say you're only killing the people that are seeking to illegaly dominate you, but those aren't the only people that will die. Also, you're setting yourself up as the one that will pass judgment on people. You are speaking of being the judge, jury and executioner. That is ultimately unamerican. You are talking about murder.

If a slave kills their master is it murder? Was it murder when the founding fathers fought against their British oppressors? Of course it isn't. On a battle field if a soldier kills an opposing soldier, is it murder? Has that soldier set themselves up as judge, jury, and executioner? Not at all.

As the founding fathers have said...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[Cam]

So the peoples will means nothing, it's just something to laugh at while pointing at the constitution and saying "this is what they said and they knew how the world was going to turn out so we can't possibly go against it". Seriously man the Constitution is a piece of paper, people make laws, people enforce laws, people decide what's right and wrong, a piece of paper is just that, yeah it means a lot, I love the Constitution it's a hell of a document, one of the greatest ever written, but just like the Articles of the Confederation, if people decide they don't like the Constitution it's gone that's what democracy is all about.

[Cam]

Originally posted by Radar


The people in America don't support income taxes. It's a far stretch of the imagination to suggest they do simply because they choose to do it out of the fear of going to jail. It would be like me putting a gun to your head and robbing you and saying, "He wanted to give me the money."

Who are these people you keep refering to? yeah I don't like paying taxes and most people don't, but I don't know many people who are completely against them as you seem to think they are.

[Torrere]

Originally posted by Radar

If a slave kills their master is it murder?

Yes. It may be justifiable, but it is still murder. I'll get back to you on the other questions.

[slang]

Originally posted by Radar
There are some areas where the majority doesn't rule and has no power. The people in America don't support income taxes. It's a far stretch of the imagination to suggest they do simply because they choose to do it out of the fear of going to jail. It would be like me putting a gun to your head and robbing you and saying, "He wanted to give me the money."

That's funny and I agree. Since the income tax is "undefeatable" , meaning there hasn't been any legal challenge to it's validity in the USSC, the masses have given up on changing it. That doesnt mean (to me) that they arent opposed to it, it means they have chosen other battles that seem more possible to win.

[Whit]

If a slave kills their master is it murder? Was it murder when the founding fathers fought against their British oppressors? Of course it isn't. On a battle field if a soldier kills an opposing soldier, is it murder? Has that soldier set themselves up as judge, jury, and executioner? Not at all.

     There is no monarchy ignoring people across the sea. There is no vicious slaver cracking a whip. There is no 'Proffesor Darkevil' trying to take over the world. Well, Bush might want to but he doesn't have the time in office left...
     Yes, there are corrupt people in the system. But there is no way every Judge in the US is a bad person. Most of the people in the system at least start off trying to do some good. Many believe they are doing the right thing. They are trying to do the best for the people they can. Instead of voting for better people you want to shoot the ones that are in now. Is paying taxes (or not, in your case) enough to shoot another man? As oposed to continuing to work through the system?
     You make it sound like you are going to line up and face down the US military and smite them with your rightousness.
     You are not talking about reform, you are talking about destruction. Killing fathers and mothers that, in many cases, are just as sure that they are following the Constitution as you are. The difference is that they work in the system to accoplish what they think are improvements. You say you'll shoot them.
     The odd part is that you can't see that calling us idiots for not agreeing with everything you say is against the very idea "all men are created equal." You are not the first person to say that. Like too many off them your suggested actions add, "But some are more equal than others."
     From the beginning of this you've made your superiority clear. We can't understand because we are idiots. So we should listen to your "vast" knowledge and experience. No, all of us are equalls. We have a right to ideas different than yours without the threat of war. You say that they are wrong because they threaten to jail anyone that doesn't so as told. You threaten revolution. You have certainly proven yourself superior to them. You'll kill instead of jail. Way to go.

[xoxoxoBruce]

You'll kill instead of jail. Way to go.

Looks like Radar and Big Bubba will grow old together.
The people I talk to (and me) don't object to paying income tax. We do grumble about how much of what they collect is wasted on stupid shit. You here all the time about pork barrel projects and studies on the sex life of slugs. That's what annoys "We the people".

I meant hear

[juju]

Well, if you do initiate the revolution, I hope you'll spare President Bush. He's a good man, and doesn't deserve death, even if he does command the army to kill you.

[That Guy]

Originally posted by Radar
Income taxation is indeed robbery... blahblahblah

I can't believe I'm just now remembering to post this, but I think Radar lives just down the street from me. Have a look at his newsprint debut: I bet Gandhi would have had lunch.

Here's my argument about taxes:
Let it be known that I hate to pay them as much as the next guy. Let it also be known that I hate having to search for ways to keep as much of my earned money as possible. Let's assume for a minute that taxes were abolished due, in part, to Radar's (flawed) sense of federal law among other things. So now I, along with my neighbors, the people reading this and everyone else that bothers to pay, have more expendible money. What can I do with all this money? SPEND IT, OF COURSE!! What do my neighbors plan to do? Well, after they move as far away from me as possible and into their grand, brand new estate double-size double-wide, they go out and buy a Caddy fo' the Daddy. What do I do? The exact same thing. Now we're all spending the extra 15-28% "extra" that we have. (The rich don't need to spend their 34% -- they're rich!) How long does it take before inflation catches up to the surplus of cash in the economy? Just about the time you reach for the post-dated jug of milk, the pimple-faced stocker boy is changing the price stick to read 6$. Yippe! But that doesn't matter, because I have "extra" money that Uncle Sam was trying to spend on defense projects that created contracts, which in turn created jobs. That in turn killed the projects, so now Dave has a lot of free time on his hands to conjure up a new-fangled credit company that is just about necessary to pay for a trip to the movies (like it isn't already), because too many people went out and spent their "extra" money without realising that inflation has an impact on Fed rates and, therefore, interest rates. So now my neighbors are forced to move back into the place next to me and make their kids drive around in an older model Grampa-mobile. But that doesn't matter, because we don't have to pay taxes anymore!

[Undertoad]

I was going to say that, and now I wish I had.

[Radar]

Many believe they are doing the right thing.

The right thing never includes violating the Constitution.

There is no monarchy ignoring people across the sea.

No, there's a government right here ignoring the will of the people.

There is no vicious slaver cracking a whip.

No, now the slave masters use guns and call themselves the IRS

There is no 'Proffesor Darkevil' trying to take over the
world.

George W. Bush and legions of other collectivists and imperialists are
trying to.

Well, Bush might want to but he doesn't have the time in office
left...

He violated the Constitution more than all other presidents combined in less than his first 2 years and nearly got us into WW3 in his first year. And let's not forget that not getting elected didn't stop him from getting in the oval office in 2000.

But there is no way every Judge in the US is a bad person.

I didn't say they were bad people and I didn't say all of them. There are a few decent judges out there. But many of them take part in the judicial conspiracy to defend taxation because they are frightened of spilling the apple cart. They don't want to be the judge responsible for ending the fraud of income taxes. And many of them are prevented from even trying by the IRS statutes which state they have no jurisdiction.

Many believe they are doing the right thing. They are trying to do the best for the people they can.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Instead of voting for better people you want to shoot the ones that are in now. Is paying taxes (or not, in your case) enough to shoot another man? As oposed to continuing to work through the system?

As I've said, I have nothing against taxes. I'm only against income taxes. And yes, if someone enslaves or robs me and my loved ones, it's enough to shoot another man. If someone attacks me and my civil rights, it's enough to shoot another man. If someone takes away every avenue for me to challenge the injustice they've done to me, it's enough for me to shoot them. If someone commits extortion against me at the point of a gun and then has the gall to ask for my allegiance, it's enough for me to shoot them. If they murder others around me when they try to stand up for their rights, it's enough for me to shoot them.

When the government doesn't abide by the rules created for the system, how can I use the system to fix government?

You make it sound like you are going to line up and face down the
US military and smite them with your rightousness.

First off there are MILLIONS of other Americans who feel like I do. And do you really think the American military will fire on their own families? Even when ordered to do so, very few will. And I'll be armed with a lot more than righteous indignation.

You are not talking about reform, you are talking about
destruction. Killing fathers and mothers that, in many cases, are just
as sure that they are following the Constitution as you are. The
difference is that they work in the system to accoplish what they think
are improvements. You say you'll shoot them.

No, I don't have to shoot them. In fact I'd like us to handle the revolution without a single drop of blood spilled or a single person opposing us. It's not going to be me and others like me indiscriminately killing other Americans. We would take over the government and wouldn't kill unless someone opposed us with weapons which we of course anticipate. And they aren't accomplishing anything from within the corrupt system. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

The odd part is that you can't see that calling us idiots for not agreeing with everything you say is against the very idea "all men are created equal."

I don't call you idiots for not agreeing with me. I call you idiots for your belief that the government has unlimited power and that as long as the general populace wants something, it's within their right to vote for it and have it. And when I call you an idiot, it doesn't go against the idea of all men being created equal. All men aren't of equal skills or capacities, but all are created with equal rights.

No, all of us are equalls. We have a right to ideas different than yours without the threat of war.

Yes, you have the right to have any ideas you wish. But you don't have the right to use legislation to push them on to me or other Americans. The role and powers of government is limited to only what is written in the constitution. And I only want to return America to a Constitutional republic. And as long as you don't oppose that end, you have nothing to
fear.

You have certainly proven yourself superior to them. You'll kill instead of jail. Way to go.

I certainly have. There are those who will allow themselves to be enslaved and those who will fight for freedom. The founding fathers said that our right to freedom and liberty were more important than our lives.

Ben Franklin said it best...

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin

Well, if you do initiate the revolution, I hope you'll spare President Bush. He's a good man, and doesn't deserve death, even if he does command the army to kill you.[/quote]

There's nothing good about GWB. George W. Bush is the single worst President in American history and he's a coward. He's responsible for the worst attacks on our civil rights in the history of America. He'd be the first one I would take out.

Let's assume for a minute that taxes were abolished due, in part, to Radar's (flawed) sense of federal law among other things.

There are no flaws in my logic or my sense of federal law.

So now I, along with my neighbors, the people reading this and everyone else that bothers to pay, have more expendible money. What can I do with all this money? SPEND IT, OF COURSE!!

Yes. You can spend it on your retirement fund, invest it, or put it in the bank. You can spend it to send your children to better schools that teach what you want them to know. You can get better health coverage. You can give some money to the charities you want to support. You can do all of the unconstitutional things that the government has illegally stuck their noses into and wrecked. You can buy a new house, car, or other products and services that will stimulate the economy and create a thousand jobs for every "defense" job that would have been created otherwise and people would be free to live thier lives their own way without having their hard-earned income stolen from them and pissed away on unconstitutional social programs.

[Griff]

Here's hoping somebody signed his non-initiation of force pledge. You've officially scared the hell out of me.

[That Guy]

Originally posted by Radar


Yes. You can spend it on your retirement fund, invest it, or put it in the bank. You can spend it to send your children to better schools that teach what you want them to know. You can get better health coverage. You can give some money to the charities you want to support. You can do all of the unconstitutional things that the government has illegally stuck their noses into and wrecked. You can buy a new house, car, or other products and services that will stimulate the economy and create a thousand jobs for every "defense" job that would have been created otherwise and people would be free to live thier lives their own way without having their hard-earned income stolen from them and pissed away on unconstitutional social programs.

I guess you're such an ignorant schlub that you didn't even realize there was more to the post. The point is that you won't get anywhere with this "extra" money once inflation takes over. Sure you'll have a nice, cool coupla thousand to kill, but you'll also start seeing interest rates climb sky-high, and staple items will become more that you care to bargain for.