Gay Marriage

[warch]

Hmmm, with hands like that you'd also be able to throw a softball pretty well.

Not so much power, but wicked sliders and splitters.

[Undertoad]

Now THAT'S comedy!

[JeepNGeorge]

Originally posted by Whit
      Oh yeah, untill someone can give me a solid reason to say gays shouldn't marry that isn't a religious or emotional thing, I say let 'em marry.

But to say that they should be married just so they can enjoy the benifits that marriage brings is bunk to me.

There are a lot of people that don't get those breaks. Whats to keep two brothers from becoming married then? Why stop at just gays? To me the fight is for the power of attorney and for the generous tax breaks. The government is not stopping them from having sex or being in love with somebody from the same sex are they? All I want to know is that if they are fighting for equality, fight for equality for all, don't just limit it to yet another group of people.

Lets do away with the some of the absurd tax credits married life brings and bring them to all people. Let parents give the home to their children if they desire instead of it going to pay for their nursing home stay. Let two brothers live together in a house and pass it to the other without getting it tangled up in probate/estate court.

There are many inequalities that the government imposes on people. Big suprise, not everybody is being treated fairly by the good ole USA. I see a ton of 'Indian' tags on vehicles here in Oklahoma. I understand why they do it. They levy a cheaper excise tax on the price of the vehicles. The problem is these people are more 'white' than I am and know nothing about their heritage, but they can prove they are 1/656th indian and hey cheaper tags, alrighty!!!!!!!

But yet I am banned from getting a farm tag on my vehicle because it is not a pickup, but a jeep. I haul wood, feed and hay in the back and use it repeatedly in the upkeep of my farm. But they were getting too many people that were putting farm tags on escalades that never saw dirt roads so they changed it to say that it must have a pickup box on it. So now there are brand new dual cab, dual transmission, dual mirrors, dual everything but gas mileage trucks out there with farm tags that still don't see a dirt road, but still get the tax break. Their tag is $35 dollars, and for my 12 year old jeep its $48. Not so fair in my books, but what can I do.

Want to make sure all people are treated fairly? Lets lobby the government to become smaller, not bigger.

If I were gay I don't think I'd even want to be legally married. They have enough information about me already without knowing I'm married to a member of the same sex.

I know I tend to ramble, but to me it's a much bigger problem than getting the government to issue a piece of paper that says what your doing is legal.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by blue58
I have nothing against gays, but I am so tired of every minority group wanting to reshape the world to their needs. I also think that most groups that go on about demanding equal treatment really want special treatment.

Hmm...I would think that what you said would be true if the overall treatment was on equal footing in the first place.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by blue58
But, it is their choice and their business. Every individual on this planet deserves the right to be treated decently and not be discriminated against. They do not however have the right to demand that society accomodate there every demand.

Why not? After all, they are being commanded to accomodate the heterosexual society's demands.

[quzah]

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
Lets do away with the some of the absurd tax credits married life brings and bring them to all people.

You're kidding right? Have you seen the tax difference between filling married and single? Grab a 10-40 booklet some time and look at it. Tax break? I think you're reading your numbers wrong.

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
If I were gay I don't think I'd even want to be legally married. They have enough information about me already without knowing I'm married to a member of the same sex.

But if you were straight it'd be ok for them to "have enough information on you" including "knowing I'm married to a member of the (opposite) sex"?

So you'd be more paranoid if you were gay, or what are you saying?

Quzah.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
To me being gay is unnatural, I know how can I be so backwards in my thinking. Having sex is enjoyable and if you enjoy having sex with a person of the same gender fine go right ahead. But in the end sex is a means to reproduce, we like it so we can survive as a species. Again this is just my humble opinion and I'm sure there are others out there that disagree.

*cringing violently!* Dang those Puritans!

But don't come whining to me cause you don't have the same rights as heterosexual people.

Interesting. Just curious: have you ever had your rights compromised in any way?

I myself don't want anymore government control in my life, so I hate it when people who feel the are rightly or wrongly being mistreated go off running to the gubment to get their rights reinstated. What usually happens is that they get more rights or more special rights than we do.

Interesting again. And who exactly is "we"?

I know it has taken several years for african americans, or blacks if you will, I'm so outdated I don't know what they prefer to be called now, to be equal

I'll take a gamble and say that for *most* of "us", "we" don't mind either one...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by juju
I really don't understand what you're trying to say, Bruce.

You concede that heterosexual attractions may be biological, but homosexual behaviors aren't? In other words, all these animals are "choosing" to have gay sex?

If not, could you maybe reword your argument for me?

I'm saying the the biological urge is to find a female and mate. If there is something that prevents this such as a shortage of females or an dominant Alpha Male, then being males they'll fuck anything they can. Warm, cold, living, dead, anything they think the guys at the bar won't find out about.

[richlevy]

You know, part of this comes down to a First Amendment vs public policy issue. In theory, if a couple, gay or heterosexual, are married in a church by a member of the clergy, then by both the equal protection clause and the first amendment guarantee to freedom of religion, they should be married.

Of course it does not work this way, as the Mormons found out. The goverment has always reserved the right to restrict certain freedoms, which is why polygamy is outlawed in every US state. In theory, marriage is up to individual states with reciprocity in other states. After all, its not like carry laws in which you can just move your gun to the trunk at the state line to stay legal. It wouldn't make sense to dissolve a marriage and arrest a 20-year-old who married a 17-year-old in another state.

But Article four allows Congress some control over how this can happen. The 10th Amendment gives power to the states and the people if not claimed by Congress. The 9th amendment allows for the future by stating that just because they didn't think to put it into the Constitution does not mean that a right doesn't exist. This is why the 'right to privacy' can be inferred without being explicitly stated.

So, the ninth amendment means that a gay couple could marry since it is not prohibited in the constitution. But marriage is subject to the policies of individual states which by the 10th amendment have the power to decide for themselves. The fourth article seems to indicate that other states must recognize such marriages, but gives Congress the right to interfere and set conditions on the degree of reciprocity.


Bottom line, a 'Defense of Marriage' amendment is a political ploy and is not necessary. Article four already gives some leeway over how much 'faith and credit' needs to be given to gay unions in states that do not wish to do so. It might in practice create a hodgepodge of differing rules on inheritance, adoption, etc, but that is nothing new.

The United States already recognizes the laws of Louisiana, which are based on Napoleanic law and are slightly different from all of the other states. This is why on a lot of legal software you will see 'except Louisiana'.

Personally, I think trying to force this issue on the whole country at this time is a mistake, even though I believe that all adults should be able to commit to each other if they are mature enough to do so.

Article IV

Section 1. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

Section 2. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by juju
Here's one idea of how this might coincide. If it seems far-fetched, then hey, it's just an idea.

There's some evidence in this this Nature article that suggests that the more older brothers a male has, the more likely he is to be homosexual. If this is true, then homosexuality genes, originally created through genetic drift, could still be passed on by heterosexual siblings.
snip

Maybe the more older brothers you have the more likely you'll get the balls beaten off you.
Could be the feeling of inability to compete with the larger dominant males or the desire to please those same males that causes them to become queer rather than genetics.
Same could happen with adopted children of gay male couples.

BTW- I don't buy the theory that *all* homosexuals were predetermined and they had no choice.

[JeepNGeorge]

Ok here's another angle at this.

I want to open a discount cigarette store/casino here in OK.

Problem is they only allow Indians to do that here.

Why should they be given a special right by the government.

Aren't you trying to say that we all have the same rights to do whatever we want?

Lets fight for equality for ALL.

[juju]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
BTW- I don't buy the theory that *all* homosexuals were predetermined and they had no choice.

Do you think a man's attraction to women is a choice?

[quzah]

Originally posted by juju
Do you think a man's attraction to women is a choice?

Personally, I don't care why; I just know what I like.

Quzah.

Originally posted by JeepNGeorge
Ok here's another angle at this.

I want to open a discount cigarette store/casino here in OK.

Problem is they only allow Indians to do that here.

Why should they be given a special right by the government.

Aren't you trying to say that we all have the same rights to do whatever we want?

Lets fight for equality for ALL.

Go for it, dude. That's pretty lame that you can't open one. If you wanted to open one, or were driven to do so, you'd probably feel the same.

That's essentially what's being said about gay marriage: "Let's fight for equality for ALL." I agree.

Glad you've come around.

[Undertoad]

I don't buy the theory that *all* homosexuals were predetermined and they had no choice.

Yes - you often see homosexual relationships cropping up in situations where there are no women or where the women are not available or even not visible. I posted one like that about homosexuality in Afghanistan under the Taliban. Put on those burqas ladies...

And this is why I personally feel that growing up with a mother and not a father, promoted my heterosexual instincts if anything, because there was a female figure present. It's not an oedipus thing, it's just going with what you know.

On the other hand, every single gay person I have known - and I have known a TON of 'em - has said that they recognized instincts in themselves as early as the age of five. And I personally feel so hetero that I doubt I would turn to gayness in a population of just men. It's just the instinct...