"She", not "he", guys

[BigV]

Have a nice vacation hq.

[DanaC]

A study has shown that "there was rather a rather extended period of time in the history of the English language when the choice of a supposedly masculine personal pronoun (him) said nothing about the gender or sex of the referent."[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He#cite_note-0


The word 'man' used to mean either gender, or could be used to refer to a male. A female would often be referred to (for example in early Anglo-saxon legal documents) as a 'man'. If it was necessary specifically to differentiate and make a point of the woman's gender they would be referred to as a 'wyfman'.

[Ibby]

...it just makes you a cunt is all.

[Aliantha]

Originally, I personally did not see this thread as an attack on Ib, and in all honesty I still don't.

What I do see wrong with it is the fact that Henry has posted it in a 'philosophy' forum, but he's looking for some kind of scientific justification for why he should be forced to do or say something which he clearly has no intention of doing, even in order to support a member of a community which he frequents, regardless of whether there is a cost to himself or not.

He claims some moral high ground about 'lying' to himself if he addresses a transgender person by their preferred pronoun, but to date has failed to explain how there can possibly be any cost to himself outside of cracking through the barriers of understanding to extend a little courtesy.

I say to you, if someone is introduced to you as Mr Schiznit, and then says, 'yeah, but you can call me Al'. would it be at some high moral cost to you to call that person Al instead of Mr Schiznit? Seriously, even if for some reason you held that person in high regard and felt comfortable calling them 'Mr', we can all get used to addressing people by their preferred name. Maybe Mr Schiznit really hates his surname and by addressing him as such, even if it feels right to you, it really sux for him, and you're not doing yourself any favours by continuing to do so, particularly if Mr Schiznit happens to be your boss or some other authority figure. In fact, not following Mr Schiznit's wishes may in fact end up being 'at great personal expense' to you!

[Clodfobble]

I have a quick and easy solution.

Just refer to henry as "she." We can't be any more certain of her genitalia as anyone else's here, and since her personal self-identification doesn't matter, only whether we are being true to ourselves...

Originally Posted by Ibby

.

Nice call. Reminds me of another girl I knew in elementary school, named Libby. Her real name was Elizabeth, and there was also another Elizabeth in the class, but she went by Bess. Our originally-foreign teacher thought both these nicknames were just absurd.

[sexobon]

Perhaps we'll have to resort to using hyphenated pronouns in which the first part recognizes self identification (in deference to the individual) and the second part recognizes genetic makeup to prevent deceptions. We could have him-her, her-him, his-hers, hers-his, he-she, she-he and those with physical traits of both sexes (by birth; or, medical intervention) could optionally use him&her, her&him, his&hers, hers&his, he&she, and she&he.

Of course, everyone would reserve the right to refer to someone they simply didn't like as she-he-it (pronounced "shit").

[DanaC]

*chuckles*

[jimhelm]

The only problem I have is that I've know Ibram as he for too long. So... I see Ibram as a male name.

Ib,
if being referred to as a she is really important, you might consider changing to a feminine login name.

...that said, I still call infinite monkey shaw, and pete's a taco dar. so no guarantees I'll get it right every time.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by jimhelm

Ib,
if being referred to as a she is really important, you might consider changing to a feminine login name.

<--- psst

[henry quirk]

This is your opinion, one which may or may not have a basis in fact.

What follows, however, is indisputably FACT...

You are XY (male), not XX (female).

Appeals to shifty cultural definitions or 'courtesy' cannot change this fact.

You are 'he'.

XY imparts certain characteristics to the flesh (as a whole). You possess these characteristics because you are XY (male, 'he'). How you choose to accentuate or diminish those characteristics is up to you. Your reasons or reasoning for accentuating or diminishing these characteristics is yours to suss out and is wholly irrelevant to me (or this thread). The source of those characteristics, however, remains the same (regardless of 'where' or 'when' you happen to be, or, what you want, or perceive yourself, to be).

You may submit to surgery and injections to alter your flesh so you appear female, but -- till you re-code your DNA -- you're 'he'.



Again: self-define as you like, and any who interact with you should feel free to call you 'she'. For myself, however, I choose to call you 'he'.

In my view: you're disturbed, disordered, and I'll not contribute to your delusion. I don't oppose you, but I won't stand with you.

'nuff said.

[infinite monkey]

I don't mind when you call me shaw. In fact, I rather like it.

[jimhelm]

aw, d00d. i didnt even notice that.

Ibby is still derivative of Ibram.

shit... d00dette.



but I call Ripley Ippy. hmmm... I'll try.

[footfootfoot]

It's pronounced "Os Wee Pay"

[monster]

Call people what you want. If you want them to respect you and respond to you in a pleasant and articulate way, you might want to refer to them in the way they prefer, no? QED as far as I can see. Me, I'm done with histrionic allegedly-young-adult attention whores who resort to name calling on a far too regular basis ( for the slooooow...), and their cheerleading squad. The rest, I think, have valid points on both side of the argument, and have presented them fairly eloquently. I particularly liked Infi's black comparison, it may not be 100% allegoriacal -who knows- but it was thoughtful and well presented imho.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by monster

Call people what you want. If you want them to respect you and respond to you in a pleasant and articulate way, you might want to refer to them in the way they prefer, no? QED as far as I can see. Me, I'm done with histrionic allegedly-young-adult attention whores who resort to name calling on a far too regular basis ( for the slooooow...), and their cheerleading squad. The rest, I think, have valid points on both side of the argument, and have presented them fairly eloquently. I particularly liked Infi's black comparison, it may not be 100% allegoriacal -who knows- but it was thoughtful and well presented imho.

I missed Infi's black comparison, did it involve pots and kettles?