03-15-2004, 02:39 PM | #136 | ||||||
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Both essays are more than 100 years old and like the Declaration of Independence, the principles espoused in them are as fresh today as the day they were written. [quote] The Law - By Frederic Bastiat and Natural Law - By Lysander Spooner Quote:
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This isn't really an accurate comparison since the husband isn't a parasite inside of her body. If he were and she chose to remove him and end his life, it would no more be a crime than removing a tumor. Quote:
Many people have a hard time distinguishing the difference between rights and privileges even though they are the opposite of each other. A right is something we don't need ask permission to do. We are born with them. This includes sole ownership of our lives, minds, and bodies and the sole discretion of what to do with them. Let's say you and I live next door to each other. I go outside and start walking back and forth across my back yard. I can do it all day and don't have to ask anyone. I can do this because I own my property. Neither you, nor the government can tell me not to walk back and forth in my own yard because it is my RIGHT to do so. Now let's say I want to go to the store and cut through your backyard. You happen to think I'm an ok guy because I am a defender of your freedom and mine so you agree to let me do it. This is a privilege. I am crossing your yard at your discretion and with your permission which you may revoke at any time. You could let me cross Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, but suddenly decide you don't like me anymore because you lost a debate to me on Friday and suddenly revoke permission. This would not violate my rights. But it would violate your rights if I continued to walk across your property even when you've revoked permission. You own your property and everything within your property that has been obtained honestly and without force or coercion. Always remember, government has no rights; society has no rights; all rights are individual rights and you must be an individual to have individual rights. Back to the fetus situation... You own your body and everything within it. If you have a tapeworm, it's YOUR tapeworm. If you have another parasite such as a fetus inside of you, you own that too until the moment it is born. Up until that very second, it is property. And the moment it is no longer inside of your body, assuming it is alive, it ceased to be property and then is an individual person and is entitled to natural rights. Quote:
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin Last edited by Radar; 03-15-2004 at 02:42 PM. |
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03-15-2004, 02:40 PM | #137 | ||||||
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The people of America (and I'd hazard to guess virtually everywhere else) have never failed to voluntarily commit to defending this country by enlisting in the military during any war including unjust and unprovoked wars like Vietnam, Iraq, etc. Only a completely voluntary military ensures the government won't rush into wars we don't belong in. It means the people (individuals) must support the government's reasons for war and keeps everyone honest. It is only the acceptance of the person whom the government is attempting to draft that matters. If this person doesn't support the reasons for the war (perhaps he's Irish and America is attacking Ireland without provocation), it would be a gross violation of his most basic human rights to use force to send him into danger or death despite his wishes. The government holds no claim over his life and can not make this decision for him. The only people for whom conscription has been successful are government bureaucrats and politicians who might start a war to appease politically influencial companies, or to secure trade with another country, or for any number of reasons that defy the only reason for having a military which is DEFENSE. Quote:
I'm against conscription because it defies natural law, common sense, and freedom and amounts to nothing less than slavery and murder. I am against the death penalty, but only because of the ineptitude of government. Many people who have gotten the death penalty have been later found innocent of the crime. Many others have been found not guilty of the crime before the death penalty but prevented from giving new evidence (DNA) etc. If there were a mountain of indisputable evidence including DNA, video tape of the crime, finger prints, and dozens of very credible witnesses, to a very heinous and nasty murder for instance, and I were on the jury I'd do what I thought best. If I had absolutely no doubt I could send them to die, but I'd try to find every doubt I could. I also didn't discount the sacrifices of those who have died defending America. This has nothing to do with the argument against conscription. I respect and honor those who have voluntarily joined the military and defended America and even those who were forced to join and were basically murdered by our own government. I'm saddened by the fact that most of these great people died while being used as pawns in unconstitutional wars when the U.S. military wasn't defending America, but rather, defending another country, attacking another country, or otherwise being misused. Quote:
Rights are not given out by government. They are something you're born with. Remember rights are the opposite of priviledges. Quote:
For work, I read a lot of computer networking manuals and boring white papers, etc. For years at home I read classic books, but recently I'm reading more contemporary and socially relevant books like Restoring the American Dream by Robert Ringer, Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do by Peter McWilliams, Libertarianism in one lesson by David Bergland, The Great Libertarian Offer by Harry Browne, Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed And What We Can Do About It by Judge Jim Gray, Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, The Emperor Wears No Clothes by Jack Herer, How to Win Local Elections by Judge Lawrence Grey, Drug War Addiction by Sheriff Bill Masters, The Libertarian Reader by David Boaz, etc. I also like all the Anne Rice Vampire Chronicle books, Sci Fi books like Neuromancer by William Gibson and Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card, etc. As I said, really too many to list
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
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03-15-2004, 02:41 PM | #138 | |
I can hear my ears
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i think you knew what i meant, and are now just nitpicking. i'm surprised at you. i see that you have strong feelings about this, and i respect your opinion. let's dont throw stones at each other.....it's not that important. peace, mama, peace.
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03-15-2004, 02:45 PM | #139 | |
I think this line's mostly filler.
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I do suspect some mental illness, though, based on the level of fear and the fact that she had already undergone the procedure.
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03-15-2004, 02:54 PM | #140 |
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A fetus is not a person and has no consent to offer even if they could. They have no rights because they are not an independent entity separate from their host.
Your explanation regarding the definition of a "person" versus a "fetus" is probably the best I've seen in the discussion so far, but I find it surprising that a mere umbilical cord makes so much of a difference. A fetus has has no consent to offer, but neither does a one year old. A fetus cannot survive on its own outside the mother, but a one year old cannot survive without the care of its mother -- it is just as much a parasite at that age. Location of the, uh, lifeform doesn't change that. I have no real opinion on the matter of pro-life versus pro-choice, but I find the argument interesting because of the definitions drawn and how they are defined. |
03-15-2004, 02:56 PM | #141 |
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One year olds can and do survive without the care of their mothers. Some thrive. They need a caregiver, not a host body.
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03-15-2004, 02:58 PM | #142 | |
"I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me."
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I can only go by personal experiences jinx. I understand what you are saying about being scrutinized, but it's about how to parent, and not why become a parent.
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03-15-2004, 03:02 PM | #143 |
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One year olds can and do survive without the care of their mothers. Some thrive. They need a caregiver, not a host body.
Hmm, yes, but some children that are not yet born that have been removed from the womb far before they are ready to be born often thrive without the need for a host body. Does the ability to survive outside of the host body define it, or does the technical aspect of passing naturally from the body graduate the being? |
03-15-2004, 03:05 PM | #144 |
Come on, cat.
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Ah, ok yes, I can see that difference. It would be considered rude to suggest that someone shouldn't have children, but not rude in the least to suggest that someone should (or are making a mistake if they are not). Crappy double standard. Not unlike the people who think it's ok to make negative comments about how skinny someone is. Some people just don't think.
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03-15-2004, 03:07 PM | #145 | |
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Quzah. |
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03-15-2004, 03:13 PM | #146 | |||||||||
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03-15-2004, 03:25 PM | #147 |
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For this discussion, please use the standard biological definition for the term "parasite" and not another.
But this is where it is confusing. The biological definition of a parasite states that it does not matter if the life form is in, on, or living with another, just as long as it is dependant on the host life form and gives nothing in return that contributes to the well being of that host. |
03-15-2004, 03:29 PM | #148 |
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The biological term of parasite refers to a host and a parasite. The parasite in this case is physically attached to...or within the host.
The social meaning of the word parasite would describe a baby, a mooching brother-in-law, etc. but is entirely different. Therefore the accurate meaning of the word "parasite" in our discussion is the biological term, not the social one.
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
03-15-2004, 03:32 PM | #149 | |
I think this line's mostly filler.
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03-15-2004, 03:33 PM | #150 |
still eats dirt
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In understanding the idea behind a parasite, perhaps we were given a definition that had a bit of the social one mixed in with it during biology. I do remember them telling us that parasites were usually harmful to the host in some way.
An Interesting Argument - I was surprised to see this debate exists elsewhere. Of course, who says fetuses aren't harmful to your health? |
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