Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[henry quirk]

Rules: pffftt!

[Cyclefrance]

Incredible, absolutely incredible, the nature of some of the commentary on this topic. Some of you need to reflect a little on your thoughts before you post. OK, this is an emotive subject, but the suggestion that a people who have no passports and who are blockaded into an ever narrowing strip of land should leave or die is ludicrous. So is the idea that any form of nuclear solution is either conceivable or justifiable.

It takes a very small amount of internet searching to see what the latest Israeli incursion is doing. Wiping out tunnels? So there are tunnels under farms are there, as farms and orchards have been been decimated through Israeli bombing? The economy and fundamental infrastructure that supports nearly 2 million people herded into an ever decreasing and already small area of land is being is being systematically destroyed - homes, utilities, services, everything.

If we had to rely purely Israeli reporting to reach our conclusions I could maybe possibly understand the severity of some of the comments being made. But the web gives us the opportunity to view from many sides. Not everything that comes from another source is propaganda. We are given too many reports to draw that conclusion. Western governments commenting that the situation is 'unacceptable' do nothing to convince the people of Gaza, and obviously Hamas, that we care - certainly not when this is backed up by million dollar and ongoing military support for Israel.

No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot. Take this as your foundation and then ensure that everything else you do observes this overriding instruction.

[Clodfobble]

It may be helpful to keep in mind that 1.) I also said every Israeli who has decided to stay there deserves to die, and 2.) I am, for better or worse, not consulted on matters of national policy, nor do I think I should be. I'm just expressing why I, and many others, find it impossible to give a damn about that part of the world anymore.

[Cyclefrance]

Noted, but I disagree with your views. And your last remark in particular saddens me, but I'll be objective in my response. If you and many others don't give a damn, then why do you show no concern that such a large trenche of the money your government takes from you in taxes is given over to military support for Israel? Why give millions of dollars to a cause you don't give a damn about? Surely, that expenditure should be given to something you do care about, shouldn't it?

[Clodfobble]

Sure. But my government spends money in tons of ways I don't agree with. I actually believe that it's all the high-stakes caring that forces us to continue to pick a side. If more people felt as I do, the American government might not feel compelled to weigh in after all.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

blockaded into an ever narrowing strip of land should leave or die is ludicrous

We can try to talk about this topic. I hope we can. But nobody has really said what you said they said so it's not a conversation yet.

Is it your understanding that this blockade is meant to keep things and people in?

Do you have a take on the blockade preventing long-range missiles from Gaza? Do you believe that happened? Would you permit that?

It takes a very small amount of internet searching to see what the latest Israeli incursion is doing. Wiping out tunnels? So there are tunnels under farms are there, as farms and orchards have been been decimated through Israeli bombing?

Too bad they don't have any greenhouses!

If we had to rely purely Israeli reporting to reach our conclusions I could maybe possibly understand the severity of some of the comments being made. But the web gives us the opportunity to view from many sides. Not everything that comes from another source is propaganda.

Oh, guess what: not everything out of Israel either. I mean unless the Times, the Guardian, the Sun and the Mail are all identical in some form in their reporting on British issues. You may safely read the Jerusalem Post from time to time without getting some form of infection. It's a major newspaper written by a sophisticated, cultured, western people who think like us. There's even debate about what to do, as Israeli opinion is not uniform.

But you're suggesting ignorance is the cause of our disagreement. What do we do when people disagree with us? #1, we think they are ignorant of the facts. #2, we think they are idiots. #3, we think they are evil.



I'm glad you are only expressing #1. If tell you that I've studied the matter in great detail and have collected a ton of facts, please do not move on to #2 where I don't have the intellectual capacity to interpret them. That's a bad time for me.

[Undertoad]

No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot.

Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-...an-casualties/

The demographic analysis of the fatalities in the Gaza conflict has limitations. It can’t identify who is or isn’t a combatant. But the spike in fatalities among males starting in their late teens and peaking in their early to mid-twenties, and the divergence of the pattern of fatalities from the demographic pattern of the population, raises considerable doubt about claims that as many as 75% or more of the fatalities are non-combatants. In light of evidence—provided by groups that monitor Arabic language media (like the Middle East Media Research Institute)—that Hamas has instructed Gazans to describe anyone killed as a civilian, journalists have a responsibility to convey this uncertainty to their audiences and not present figures provided by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated sources as unqualified fact.

Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

... No innocent person deserves to die ...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Why give millions of dollars to a cause you don't give a damn about?

They do, I don't.

Surely, that expenditure should be given to something you do care about, shouldn't it?

Caring about misused tax money, does not equate with concern about Mideast politics. If I want something to get pissed about, how about the three pallets, each containing $144,000,000 of my taxes, in US $100 bills, that the US Air Force flew to the Iraqi government, and then disappeared. You seem to think the US is a democracy. Wrong it's an oligarchy, and I'm not one of the oligs. I can effect this shit about as much as you can prevent the Queen from claiming all the swans as her own.

Since Pop bought a TV in 1952 I've been aware of the constant turmoil in the middle east. Like watching one of the mudpots at Yellowstone Park. There's a lot going on down deep but it's opaque, so you only see the bubbles as they rise to the surface. Thrown out? Driven out? Trying to escape? We'll never know why, only that they rise, then self destruct leaving nothing but stench behind.

Not one of the countries over there is our(US) friend. None of the people over there are my friend, and I suspect half of them would kill me in a heartbeat. As for, Oh, the humanity, the children, think of the children, I'll save my empathy for the other billions of people struggling against nature,(flood, famine, disease) rather than these fools with their generational blood feuds.

[Cyclefrance]

Just back after a long day. I haven't even begun to digest the various replies to my post, and with an early start tmrw, I will have to leave doing so until tmrw afternoon, when I will have free time again, so will respond then.

[Undertoad]

The more I think about it, the more I think it's just a cultural thing. The US has decided to view it this way, Europe has decided to view it this other way. Kinda sorta. And I know I have been borderline shocked before, by certain cultural differences in political philosophy between the continents. It's just a "we grew up like that" kind of thing.

[henry quirk]

At this point: All I'm seein' are folks interested in profiting from their 'oppressed' status goin' at it with folks interested in foistin' up their demented religion on the world.

To hell with both sides...to hell with those who advocate for either side.

[Cyclefrance]

I'm finding it hard to keep up with this thread. Maybe that's a reflection of how convoluted the problem is, or, perhaps more likely, how old I am getting! Trying to disentangle who is right and who is wrong based on what has happened in the past seems pointless to me. If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits. We're pretty good at carving up other people's land - look what we did in Ireland and we've only relatively recently extricated ourselves from the mess that caused. Still we did resolve it to a degree that has held firm for a good few years now, so there should always be hope. To move forward in such situations, though, you have to draw a line on what has gone before, however unpalatable that may seem.

I was essentially trying to get across some simplified messages or observations if you like. For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. I know that's a rather naive sounding thing to say given the atrocities that are created throughout the world, but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so. And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side. The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.

I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.

Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here, certainly on a domestic level, and this is mainly down to a small number of organisations that use the scope that current technology permits to provide a platform for people to join together to voice their disapproval. When the voice of disapproval grows big enough, loud enough then, perhaps surprisingly (perhaps not given it doesn't want to alienate its electorate) our government has been seen to act in ways that show that it does apparently listen.

I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post. I certainly don't think people here are ignorant so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression. I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really, but I will be back on some, just not tonight. Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!

[Undertoad]

Thank you Cyc, if nothing else we will get further if we are adult about it and all have respect for each other. Maybe we can find a better way to talk about it.

For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.

That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.

Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.

~

I thought about your earlier post and there is one more item I must take issue with. You believe that Israel would strategically bomb crop fields. This idea is ridiculous on its face for no other reason than no army in the world would waste expensive munitions bombing dirt. But what you should also know is that Israel provides almost all the fresh water for Gaza, and if it doesn't want Gaza growing crops, or if it wants to maximize suffering, it can merely shut the water off for a while.

If you saw images or video of dirt being bombed I will guarantee you that the rockets that rained down on the crops were fired by Hamas. Like all modern militaries, Israel actually tries to aim their bombs. Hamas points in the general direction and lets Allah do the aiming part. Their bombs often hit their own territory and/or citizens.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits.

Long before Brits, or Britain for that matter.

We're pretty good at carving up other people's land...

The main two reasons for the carving was to reward important people, and separate enemies from each other. Now people are mobile, the enemies can't be separated that easily.

For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.

I certainly approve of that sentiment, but as I sit here reading about/pondering, the fucked up state of the middle east, nobody is kicking in my door. I'm reasonably certain there won't be anything coming through the roof, and I'm brazenly sitting right next to a window.

...but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so.

Those days are gone, especially with the cold war heating up. No unified Mom & Dad against petulant terrorist, they're playing off divorced Mom against Dad.

And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side.

The somewhere between $3 and $8 Billion the US gives Israel every year? In reality it's like the birthday card from grandma with $10 tucked in it. That money is appreciated, and will be used, but doesn't mean a tinkers damn to my lifestyle. It's more important as a reassurance that despite how I've fucked up, grandma still loves me.

The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.

That's a tough one for leaders that routinely write off millions of people as simply collateral damage in the control the empire game.

I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.

I agree it's the right goal, and I hope those statements are from frustration over this never ending story, but then reality pops up and says, how? That's when people revert to the nuke and move quips as an escape from the migraine inducing puzzle.

Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here,..

I look at what it took to get us out of Vietnam, at a time when the "people" still had some clout, the politicians still had to placate the masses to get reelected, and there weren't eleventy factions to align.
We've had relatively small groups (Sierra Club, Green Peace, Republicans) in which the supporters aren't offending their neighbors with picket signs, but using lobbyists and the courts to force big changes.

I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post.

Disagreement is not criticism.

I certainly don't think people here are ignorant...

Are to.

...so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression.

Never apologize.

I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really,...

Don't you hate when people do that?

...but I will be back on some, just not tonight.

Sounds like a threat.

Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!

Some sadistic lying bastard. After you retire, you slow down and the world speeds up, until you've fallen and you can't get up.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.
Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.

That's more difficult than it sounds. At first it's like, well of course, who would not agree with that. Then it's, well, those crazy ______ terrorists. And those stupid _______ worshipers. Oh, the filthy ________ bastards. Etc, etc, ad infinitum.

Hey, maybe if we could get at least the major religions to condemn killing, we could... um.. nevermind.