spanking or not?

I just don't buy the arguments that the non smackers come up with. Particularly those that come from places where the death penalty is still a form or punishment deemed suitable by the majority of people.

I agree that that is immoral and one looks like a fool telling a kid not to be violent while telling them it is ok to murder someone strapped to a chair or table.
This easily can be a problem with authority in the US with some kids, not a core one, but must add to the issue on some subconscious level; any hypocrisy does.
Fortunately for me, I will tell my son that being for the death penalty and "moral" is just that IMO, explain why I feel that way, so there will be no issue in our home.

Pierce, I think you are grossly underestimating kid's ability to think for themselves. As a teacher for years, there are ages where they will behave erratically because of what their peers are doing (5th - 8th grades estimated), but if their core teachings and personality does not jive with that they will not be part of the central group and will grow out of it. I was part of that and also saw it over-&-over-&-over again. Many times encouraging kids to stop being tag-alongs.
Kids are just small people, they make decisions for the same reasons we do.
IMO, adults are more influenced by group-think than kids ever were.

Just because people who were spanked are not outwardly, physically, aggressive does not mean they are not aggressive and harmful in other ways, at least for a time while they learn to deal with the resentment of being hit by their loved ones.
Passive aggressive behavior is more damaging and as "violent", even more so & far more long lasting, than any beating can be.
The studies I posted clearly stated that there are lasting effects.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Pierce, I think you are grossly underestimating kid's ability to think for themselves. As a teacher for years, there are ages where they will behave erratically because of what their peers are doing (5th - 8th grades estimated), but if their core teachings and personality does not jive with that they will not be part of the central group and will grow out of it. I was part of that and also saw it over-&-over-&-over again. Many times encouraging kids to stop being tag-alongs.
Kids are just small people, they make decisions for the same reasons we do.
IMO, adults are more influenced by group-think than kids ever were.

I know what you are getting at and you are right, but I just don't think it happens that often. There are adults that should be respected when they aren't and I think that is due to the lack of contact between generations. Besides parents and teachers, it is rare, at least from what I've seen, for an adult and kid to have a good relationship with each other and for that adult to teach that kid how the world really does work.

It obviously isn't impossible nowadays for an adult and a kid to have that teacher-pupil-friend relationship but I very rarely see it.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Pierce, I think you are grossly underestimating kid's ability to think for themselves. As a teacher for years, there are ages where they will behave erratically because of what their peers are doing (5th - 8th grades estimated), but if their core teachings and personality does not jive with that they will not be part of the central group and will grow out of it. I was part of that and also saw it over-&-over-&-over again. Many times encouraging kids to stop being tag-alongs.
Kids are just small people, they make decisions for the same reasons we do.
IMO, adults are more influenced by group-think than kids ever were.

There seems to be a contradiction here. What are the 'peers' and the 'central group' doing?

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Kids are just small people, they make decisions for the same reasons we do.

I'm not so sure I agree with that part rk - Kids don't have the intelligence, wisdom nor experience that adults have when it comes to decisionmaking - not that spanking will help, but I do not think children can think of all the ramifications or consequences associated with their actions.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by yesman065

I'm not so sure I agree with that part rk - Kids don't have the intelligence, wisdom nor experience that adults have when it comes to decisionmaking - not that spanking will help, but I do not think children can think of all the ramifications or consequences associated with their actions.

What age are you talking about?

When a kid is under 10 then the decisions are usually much different but I think rkzenrage was talking about middle and high schoolers, which, scientifically supported, have the same thought process of adults. It is just that adults have much more experienced and know when to hold back and when not too.


The theory of cognitive development states that once a child reaches the age of 11-15, they will reach the highest possible cognitive stage, formal operation stage, and will remain in that stage throughout adulthood.

Once a person reaches the formal operation stage they technically have reached their full potential in reasoning, and then they will just gain experience and become wiser with choices. There are other variables like moral development and that but this is more or less the base for social and non-social reasoning in humans.

Theory of Cognitive Development:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_development
http://evolution.massey.ac.nz/assign2/MH/webpage.htm

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What age are you talking about?

I wasn't sure what aged children rk was talking about. Since the term kid can refer to a broad range, I was stating my opinion mostly on younger children 2 - 10-ish.

Originally Posted by yesman065

I'm not so sure I agree with that part rk - Kids don't have the intelligence, wisdom nor experience that adults have when it comes to decisionmaking - not that spanking will help, but I do not think children can think of all the ramifications or consequences associated with their actions.

Depends on the kid.
I don't many adults that made decisions well.
Per an earlier statement, authority figures should not be friends.

When a kid is under 10 then the decisions are usually much different but I think rkzenrage was talking about middle and high schoolers, which, scientifically supported, have the same thought process of adults. It is just that adults have much more experienced and know when to hold back and when not too.

Yes, and some adults.

and it is just a theory...

Do you understand what theory means in science?
Not the same as lay language, it means it has been shown to be true under multiple circumstances and by more than one scientist (peer review).
Gravity is "just a theory".

I wasn't sure what aged children rk was talking about. Since the term kid can refer to a broad range, I was stating my opinion mostly on younger children 2 - 10-ish.

I can tell you from multiple experiences, not just my son, a two-year-old will treat you exactly like you treat them and does not give a shit what you say to them. The same is true for all kids, the younger the kid, the more true this is.
Fact.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Depends on the kid.
I can tell you from multiple experiences, not just my son, a two-year-old will treat you exactly like you treat them and does not give a shit what you say to them. The same is true for all kids, the younger the kid, the more true this is.
Fact.

Although I agree to most of your post in theory, I have to say that I disagree with this part.
After/while still parenting 3 teenagers, if there is one absolute, it is that NOTHING is true for ALL kids. Not even close to a fact. I have to treat all my children differently, they are all individuals with different life experiences. They are NOT ALL the same - not even close. While coaching 100's of children from 7 to 15 I find that they respond differently as well. Thats the beauty of it all - we are all different.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Theories in psychology are there to explain why we act like we do, it doesn't change the premises of the area they are testing it on. There is usually no contradiction between experience or traditions and the explanation. Because of that, it is more of a take it or leave it scenario but these things are very helpful because to do give an idea on how the conciousness works.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

"Theory" in general science is different from "theory" in psychology. There are many contradictory theories in psychology; not in empirical sciences like biology or physics.

I agree. People shop around for a psychologist that subscribes to a school (theory)they are comfortable with. They probably don't know the therapist's theory but test the comfort level. Not saying it doesn't help them just not all psychologists would.

I subscribe to the Dr Phil school... he comes on, the TV goes off.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Passive aggressive behavior is more damaging and as "violent", even more so & far more long lasting, than any beating can be.

Wait, so the most horrible thing you can do to your kids is spank them, except for not spanking and being passive aggressive instead, because that's even worse?

Who said the "most horrible"? Was not me.
Keep in mind, I have stated clearly and unequivocally that telling kids that if they sin they are going to hell to suffer for all eternity is child abuse.

[monster]

Kids respect purple hair. I've found.

[Cloud]

the punishments I most resented were not spankings. Those were over and done with, but other, more creative punishments . . . those lingered and festered.

[Aliantha]

The theory of cognitive developement also clearly states that before you reach each stage of developement you must go through certain trials. That is, there are challenges with each stage and if you don't actually have those challenges, then your cognitive development can be retarded somewhat.

[Griff]

and it is just a theory...