The Pharmaceutical Industry

[glatt]

Originally Posted by DeepOne

So why not just go to the pharmacy and buy plan B which you don't need a prescription for, not mess up the rest of your year's worth of pills OR, better yet, use a condom?

Two reasons: The first is that during the 80, the plan B pills were first being rolled out in various countries, and they were not as available as they are now. So BCPs were the only game in town then for many people. The second reason is that BCPs are cheaper than the plan B pills, and many people already had them on hand.

I agree with your implied point that today it's more convenient to go for the plan B pills. I think you don't even need a prescription when you go to the pharmacy window.

[DeepOne]

Wait, so if they're not on the pill how would they be able to double up on their pills to use as a morning after and BOOM! my head exploded.

darn.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

When an herbal remedy is tested and works, it becomes part of modern medicine.

If it doesn't require a prescription, what does that mean? People use it? Doctors informally recommend it?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

If it doesn't require a prescription, what does that mean? People use it? Doctors informally recommend it?

Yes. Aspirin is an obvious example.

[Clodfobble]

Okay. I use lactobacillus acidophilus as a probiotic. My doctor has recommended it. It has been tested in a variety of studies as a digestive aid. So you're on board with that, then?

[Happy Monkey]

According to a quick Google:

Originally Posted by Mayo Clinic

Multiple human trials report benefits of Lactobacillus acidophilus for bacterial vaginosis. Other medicinal uses of Lactobacillus acidophilus are not sufficiently studied to form clear conclusions.

Wikipedia and medicinenet also mention using it to repopulate the gut after antibiotics. NIH seems to be the source of the Mayo Clinic quote, and has a lot more data about the studies with respect to that and other uses.

I'm on board with the NIH.

[Clodfobble]

And from your initial link, I would assume that you're now on board with the use of ginger to alleviate nausea, right? And of course, any proctologist in the country will tell you to use magnesium citrate to clean out your colon before an examination, and by extension it will treat constipation as well... I could continue to name them, but my point is you already use and "believe in" a huge number of "natural remedies." The only problem is you hear the phrase "natural remedies" and you assume that must mean it hasn't been tested.

What's more, untested does not equal disproven. It is all well and good to hold ourselves to a scientific ideal of broad-scale, blind testing for the effectiveness of every single remedy everyone has ever thought of. But the reality is neither the medical or the pharmaceutical companies can meet that ideal, the vast majority of the time. Economic realities taint everything.

[classicman]

Not to tail post here, but has the term "natural remedies" really been defined here?
It can mean many different things. Just saying.

[Clodfobble]

That's the point. Some people hear those words and can't help but run screaming for the hills, desperate to wash off the dirty hippie cooties.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

...
I could continue to name them, but my point is you already use and "believe in" a huge number of "natural remedies."
...
What's more, untested does not equal disproven.

I'm all for the ones that have been tested and proven. Untested doesn't mean disproven, but it does mean unproven. And if you scroll back, you'll find that my initial post on this thread was in response to "untested home remedies".

Unfortunately, the FDA doesn't regulate them, so there are still some problems. There is no differentiation on the shelves between the ones that are tested and proven, the ones that are untested, and the ones that have been tested and proven useless. So unless you've got the NIH site up on your smartphone as you go down that aisle, you can't tell.

It is all well and good to hold ourselves to a scientific ideal of broad-scale, blind testing for the effectiveness of every single remedy everyone has ever thought of. But the reality is neither the medical or the pharmaceutical companies can meet that ideal, the vast majority of the time. Economic realities taint everything.

The economic reality is that the herbal supplement industry has deliberately avoided being treated as food or drug, despite being sold as something for people to ingest, in order to avoid the requirement that their products be tested. Happily, in 2007 the FDA was given the authority to check that the products at least contain the ingredients on the label. So that's a plus. I'm not sure how homeopathy fits into that, though, as they don't contain any of the ingredient.

Originally Posted by classicman

Not to tail post here, but has the term "natural remedies" really been defined here?
It can mean many different things. Just saying.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

That's the point.

It's my point too. There's no differentiation on the "natural remedies" shelves between tested and untested remedies, or even between effective and ineffective tested products.

The normal state of the alternative medicine industry is equivalent to when the FDA system fails.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

The normal state of the alternative medicine industry is equivalent to when the FDA system fails.

It's also a question of severity. When an herbal supplement fails, the result is: nothing. When a drug fails, we discover it because people are suffering severe side effects and even death. Oh, and sometimes they suffer those when the drug is working too.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

There is no differentiation on the shelves between the ones that are tested and proven, the ones that are untested, and the ones that have been tested and proven useless.

There is at least one differentiation: untested substances must put a disclaimer that the FDA has not tested it and it is "not intended to treat, diagnose, or prevent any disease."

[DanaC]

Well. That's not entirely the case. There are some herbal remedies which can have a very serious impact on health if not taken carefully and under medical supervision. I can't remember the name of it now, but I know there's one that can cause quite serious liver and kidney problems, if they used where an underlying problem already exists (I think this is mainly a problem with undiagnosed existing conditions).

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Well. That's not entirely the case. There are some herbal remedies which can have a very serious impact on health if not taken carefully and under medical supervision. I can't remember the name of it now, but I know there's one that can cause quite serious liver and kidney problems, if they used where an underlying problem already exists (I think this is mainly a problem with undiagnosed existing conditions).

Are you talking about ephedra, maybe? I know a few people died from it when they didn't follow directions. Like, one guy took 20-something pills within a 24 hour period, and you aren't supposed to exceed 6 or 8 in a 24 hour period. Another guy took a bunch and then went to football (or maybe it was baseball) practice in the hot sun and died.

I think sometimes people do stupid shit, and they pay the price. Should a natural plant substance be banned because some people are idiots? I think not. But there should be a severe warning on the label.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I think sometimes people do stupid shit, and they pay the price. Should a natural plant substance be banned because some people are idiots? I think not. But there should be a severe warning on the label.

There are othr facors though. I think it might have been St John's wort. A natural herbal remedy which can have devastating effects on undiagnosed kidney problems.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Chinese and Ayurvedic Medicine have been tested and proved for over 5000 years.

Tested how? Do you mean used?

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Are you talking about ephedra, maybe?

Or, perhaps Ayurvedic. I hadn't heard of it before, but the first thing that pops out when googling it is its frequent toxic heavy metal content.