Science, Religion, and the Surrounding Confusion.

[juju]

Such as?

[zippyt]

Yer a Pooopy Head !!

[regular.joe]

cchttp://www.research.ibm.com/people/h...n00-goedel.pdf

[HungLikeJesus]

r.j I've read that paper, and I think they made a fundamental error in using the "0" symbol. See here for further discussion.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by HungLikeJesus

r.j I've read that paper, and I think they made a fundamental error in using the "0" symbol. See here for further discussion.

Impeccable, irrefutable, logical, self-actualized reasoning. Who can argue with that?

[Undertoad]

Well you can't prove a negative, so you can't prove God doesn't exist.

We appear to be no further along this problem.

[skysidhe]

page marker

[jinx]

It is my observation that people without faith are people with out experience to build any faith.

I don't think I understand what you're saying here... and I would like to.

[Pico and ME]

RJ, let me soften what I said a bit. Take out the words serious and brain-washing first of all (although, that is how I feel about most religion). Faith is based on experience, it does not come from nothing. Nobody ever really 'jumps right in and believes something without any proof that the belief is valid'. First there is an experience that provides a basis for the belief which reinforces the faith in it. For instance, your experience has helped to build your spirituality. However, I think that most people are basing their faith on their upbringing and, perhaps in part, societal peer pressure.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

RJ, let me soften what I said a bit. Take out the words serious and brain-washing first of all (although, that is how I feel about most religion). Faith is based on experience, it does not come from nothing. Nobody ever really 'jumps right in and believes something without any proof that the belief is valid'. First there is an experience that provides a basis for the belief which reinforces the faith in it. For instance, your experience has helped to build your spirituality. However, I think that most people are basing their faith on their upbringing and, perhaps in part, societal peer pressure.

People most certainly do jump right in and believe. That's why its called faith. I'll agree that people do have spiritual experiences, but not every "true believer" necessarily has seen a burning bush. Nor do people who are raised in a certain faith always stay with it as adults. In fact, many people's early experiences with religion turn them off completely to any kind of spirituality. This was true in my case for a long time, and I have met many others who felt the same as I did. As far as peer pressure, it seems to me that modern society influences people more toward atheism or agnosticism than belief.

I also don't think that people who attempt to follow a spiritual path are "bat shit crazy." There are many intelligent, thoughtful and moral people who seek a path that transcends the self-seeking, amoral society that we live in. What's so bat-shit about that?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

However, I think that most people are basing their faith on their upbringing and, perhaps in part, societal peer pressure.

This is a classic logical fallacy, that someone who disagrees with you must only do so because they have not examined the evidence. You have just met someone who you can see has examined the evidence and arrived at a different conclusion than yours... and yet your response is that he is the exception, all the rest of the people who disagree with you still must have not actually thought about the issue for themselves. "Soften" the words all you want, you just readily admitted that you're not willing to be wrong.

But you can have a bonus point for not using the word "sheep" yet. Congratulations.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

This is a classic logical fallacy, that someone who disagrees with you must only do so because they have not examined the evidence. You have just met someone who you can see has examined the evidence and arrived at a different conclusion than yours... and yet your response is that he is the exception, all the rest of the people who disagree with you still must have not actually thought about the issue for themselves. "Soften" the words all you want, you just readily admitted that you're not willing to be wrong.

But you can have a bonus point for not using the word "sheep" yet. Congratulations. :roll eyes:

Holy Pot-Calling-The-Kettle-Black Batman!

I have strong feelings about religion, and I'm sure that many of them are not very logical or even well-thought out. Life is a learning curve, after all. As for not being willing to admit that I am wrong...NOT TRUE. In an earlier post I did just that.

In this post, however, I would say that my error is in using a bit of hyperbole...but I still feel that in general, religion needs indoctrination in order to succeed (and thus, faith follows that indoctrination). It is not made up of a bunch of individuals getting together because they have the same 'spiritual experiences', but rather members who were indoctrinated in the philosophy starting at a young age....either through their family or society. For a small example; when I was a toddler, my mother sent me to to Sunday School, even though she wasn't religious in any way. She didn't want me to feel alienated from society because I didn't 'have a religion'. Of course, this was in the Sixties and things have changed dramatically since. An affiliation with a church is not necessary anymore to be accepted in 'society'....although, in some circles it still does help...and if you are running for president.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

Holy Pot-Calling-The-Kettle-Black Batman!

This might be an accurate or relevant comment if you had any idea what I believe, but you don't. Go back and read my post again--I in no way suggested anything about non-believers, all or some. But I'm not surprised that you're used to getting knee-jerk responses to your knee-jerk remarks, and start to see them where none exist.

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

In this post, however, I would say that my error is in using a bit of hyperbole...but I still feel that in general, religion needs indoctrination in order to succeed (and thus, faith follows that indoctrination). It is not made up of a bunch of individuals getting together because they have the same 'spiritual experiences', but rather members who were indoctrinated in the philosophy starting at a young age....either through their family or society.

Natural selection says that if that were true, it would die out. Every society known to man has had some sort of religious culture, and new ones are getting started all the time. It's not indoctrination keeping them all alive, but rather something inherent in human nature, the need to search for answers and come up with hypotheses for the questions we can't answer. Your own example demonstrates how indoctrination had the opposite effect on you, as a matter of fact.

[Pico and ME]

Clodfobble...You didn't address my post, you attacked the way I posted. You even gave it a dose of sarcasm for good measure. Thats Ok with me if you want to do that, but isn't it also another form of logical fallacy?

I will grant you that there is something inherent in man that keeps him looking for answers, but I don't think whatever that is proves religion's or spirituality's 'inherentabilty' (sp?). Some may go the route of religion for those answers and while others may go the route of science.

In my case, I think indoctrination probably did play a big part in my atheism. I used my toddler example to point out how strongly societal pressure can affect ones choices. In actually, my Mom never hid her atheist beliefs and I probably share those beliefs as a result.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

Clodfobble...You didn't address my post, you attacked the way I posted. You even gave it a dose of sarcasm for good measure. Thats Ok with me if you want to do that, but isn't it also another form of logical fallacy?

Dude... you smoke crack. I addressed the "pot calling the kettle black" part of your post, and then I addressed the "indoctrination" part of your post, and I referenced the "toddler anecdote" part of your post. I'll readily cop to the sarcasm, I can't usually get rid of that. Here, I'll address the parts I skipped:

I have strong feelings about religion, and I'm sure that many of them are not very logical or even well-thought out. Life is a learning curve, after all.

Okay.

As for not being willing to admit that I am wrong...NOT TRUE. In an earlier post I did just that.

Okay. 'I was wrong, but I'm still generally right' is kind of like 'Some of my best friends are black,' but I'll give you credit for it if you want. It's not about admitting you were wrong in a specific instance but rather acknowledging the possibility that you don't know everything, but you did that in the quote just prior to this statement, so... okay.

An affiliation with a church is not necessary anymore to be accepted in 'society'....although, in some circles it still does help...and if you are running for president.

Okay.


...See, that wasn't particularly interesting, seeing how I was okay with all the other parts. I figured I'd just address the parts I had something to say about.

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

I will grant you that there is something inherent in man that keeps him looking for answers, but I don't think whatever that is proves religion's or spirituality's 'inherentabilty' (sp?). Some may go the route of religion for those answers and while others may go the route of science.

Absolutely. I don't know that it's inherently true, I just know it's an inherent behavior in people. That's very different from "I think that most people are basing their faith on their upbringing and, perhaps in part, societal peer pressure" which was the statement that I originally had a beef with.

In my case, I think indoctrination probably did play a big part in my atheism. I used my toddler example to point out how strongly societal pressure can affect ones choices. In actually, my Mom never hid her atheist beliefs and I probably share those beliefs as a result.

Okay.