Science, Religion, and the Surrounding Confusion. - Page 3

Cloud · 07-08-2008, 01:28 PM

Continental drift! that was it!

lookout123 · 07-08-2008, 01:56 PM

hey, i vaguely remember that.

Flint · 07-08-2008, 04:06 PM

Yeah, I understand. I diverged from your point, but it's a good point. And that is how you should do it. If someone is speaking with something as their specific basis, then they should be able to answer in those terms. If they can't do that then the problem isn't the book or the religion, it's that the person is a sloppy thinker.

But it isn't just an innocent mistake--where did these ideas come from? Which was your question.

Troubleshooter · 07-08-2008, 04:27 PM

It's funny, I'm pretty open about being an atheist, even fact to face.

People will ask me (usually rather loudly and shrilly), "Why do you hate God?"

I tell them, "I don't have a problem with God, it's you I don't like."

It's an easy mistake for them to make.

They've so wrapped themselves up in dogma that they forget that faith is an internal revelatory event. Faith isn't up for debate, everything else is though.

Bullitt · 07-27-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

It's funny, I'm pretty open about being an atheist, even fact to face.

People will ask me (usually rather loudly and shrilly), "Why do you hate God?"

I tell them, "I don't have a problem with God, it's you I don't like."

It's an easy mistake for them to make.

They've so wrapped themselves up in dogma that they forget that faith is an internal revelatory event. Faith isn't up for debate, everything else is though.

I'm not an athiest, but I do completely agree with what you've said here.
I have a much different viewpoint than many of my Christian peers, which has lead on multiple occasions to them trying to swing up a faith based argument that I refuse to take part in. All I say is look at history and you will see that us folks here on earth don't have it all together by any stretch of the imagination. So for you to come and say that my faith is wrong, and you know the one true way is being ignorant of all those before you who had the same thought pattern and ended up trying to extinguish other faiths by a variety of different means.
So even though I have my Christian based faith, I feel closer and much more sympathetic to athiests than my "fellow" Christians.

Pico and ME · 07-09-2008, 02:25 PM

Bruce : I know, but isn't that the church that 'fathered' a lot of our current religious communities? (Here in the States, I mean). This was just a thought that occurred to me as I was reading the posts in this thread. I'm still always baffled...just like Flint is, by how difficult is to get people off religious dogma even when it cant be substantiated or goes against what is considered common knowledge now (like that the Grand Canyon is only 4,500 years old).

Jinx: I stand corrected..

. I was close...though. :p

xoxoxoBruce · 07-10-2008, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

Bruce : I know, but isn't that the church that 'fathered' a lot of our current religious communities? (Here in the States, I mean).

Yes, but through the reformation and subsequent splits, the church isn't The church anymore.

Quote:

This was just a thought that occurred to me as I was reading the posts in this thread. I'm still always baffled...just like Flint is, by how difficult is to get people off religious dogma even when it cant be substantiated or goes against what is considered common knowledge now (like that the Grand Canyon is only 4,500 years old).

Probably lack of education and laziness.
Coberst expounded on the value of a "quest for disinterested knowledge". There is a whole lot of people that aren't interest in learning anything besides the sports scores, or what time Wheel of Fortune is on, if it doesn't relate to their job.

There is the problem that scientific knowledge is a moving target, constantly being updated, often changing what they previously thought was true. If you just catch the headlines, it can lead to confusion and mistrust of the scientific community.
For example, I'm hearing a lot of that about Global Warming. People saying, hey they said global cooling was a problem, then warming is a problem... those scientists don't know shit.

Oh, and juju works for the devil itself.

Pico and ME · 07-10-2008, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Probably lack of education and laziness.
Coberst expounded on the value of a "quest for disinterested knowledge". There is a whole lot of people that aren't interest in learning anything besides the sports scores, or what time Wheel of Fortune is on, if it doesn't relate to their job.

Quite so, and as HLJ points out here, that problem will be with us forever. Its just really discouraging when even our government encourages it as has happened with the Bush administration.

Quote:

There is the problem that scientific knowledge is a moving target, constantly being updated, often changing what they previously thought was true. If you just catch the headlines, it can lead to confusion and mistrust of the scientific community.
For example, I'm hearing a lot of that about Global Warming. People saying, hey they said global cooling was a problem, then warming is a problem... those scientists don't know shit.

Hmmm. Good point. Another aspect of that problem is that its hard to trust the motivations behind the people or organizations that are coming up with all these 'new knowledge' bits and pieces....for instance how one day a group of food is considered bad for you, and then the next day its great for you - you just wonder how much that particular food lobby paid for that bit of reporting. Just like the fundies would assign motive to the people who espouse evolutionary theory.

regular.joe · 07-09-2008, 02:32 PM

Hey ya'll I must recant. I've made a grave error, the experiment that I had in mind in my post is the "Double Slit Experiment."

My apologies. I'm getting old, and have been blown up one too many times.

juju · 07-09-2008, 08:32 PM

Hi guys! It's been a long time.

I really must disagree with the sentiment that religion and science can peacefully coexist. They are mutually exclusive. The reason is, they both speak to the same thing: to answer questions about the nature of the universe. This is the reason they are so frequently at odds.

The only reason for religion is to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. The so called "God of the Gaps". Anytime there is a gap in knowledge, just plug in God.

Even the existence of God himself is a scientific hypothesis that could be proven if he actually existed.

To those who would suggest that God created everything, I would ask, who created God? Any being powerful enough to create a universe must necessarily be more complex than that universe himself. So, where did he come from? If the universe must have been created because it's complex, well God would have to be complex to, so who created him? All this does is attempt to answer a mystery with a mystery. Why not just say you don't know, or fill the gaps in your knowledge in with provable facts?

Oh! And just to hit on Flint's point on the Neatherthals, I don't think there is concensus among Physical Anthropologists that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens ever came into contact. Although their fossils are found in the same regional area within the same timeline, the dating method they use only has a certain time resolution. So, when the weather changed, the Neatherthals could have moved north on their own, and then the Homo Sapiens could have moved in a few years later. As far as I know, it wasn't proven that they ever saw each other. It's only circumstantial evidence. Interesting nonetheless.

Undertoad · 07-09-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Even the existence of God himself is a scientific hypothesis that could be proven if he actually existed.

Not "could be proven if he actually existed"

But "would be proven if he actually exists"

That, I think, would be a proper statement of the scientific method. Otherwise, you're putting the conclusion into the hypothesis.

juju · 07-09-2008, 09:34 PM

Well, I didn't mean to say I was stating a hypothesis, just that one could be formed.

Undertoad · 07-09-2008, 09:51 PM

OK here's the hypothesis: "God exists".

Go to it!

juju · 07-09-2008, 09:54 PM

Ya, too bad he doesn't exist. If he did, there'd be evidence of it and it could be proven.

regular.joe · 07-09-2008, 10:08 PM

In any system there are statements that are true that can not be proven.

07-08-2008, 01:28 PM	#1
Cloud ... Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 8,360	Continental drift! that was it! __________________ "Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the bastards!"

07-08-2008, 01:56 PM	#2
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	hey, i vaguely remember that. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-08-2008, 04:06 PM	#3
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Yeah, I understand. I diverged from your point, but it's a good point. And that is how you should do it. If someone is speaking with something as their specific basis, then they should be able to answer in those terms. If they can't do that then the problem isn't the book or the religion, it's that the person is a sloppy thinker. But it isn't just an innocent mistake--where did these ideas come from? Which was your question. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

07-08-2008, 04:27 PM	#4
Troubleshooter The urban Jane Goodall Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 3,012	It's funny, I'm pretty open about being an atheist, even fact to face. People will ask me (usually rather loudly and shrilly), "Why do you hate God?" I tell them, "I don't have a problem with God, it's you I don't like." It's an easy mistake for them to make. They've so wrapped themselves up in dogma that they forget that faith is an internal revelatory event. Faith isn't up for debate, everything else is though. __________________ I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle

07-09-2008, 02:32 PM	#9
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	Hey ya'll I must recant. I've made a grave error, the experiment that I had in mind in my post is the "Double Slit Experiment." My apologies. I'm getting old, and have been blown up one too many times. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

07-09-2008, 02:25 PM	#6
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	Bruce : I know, but isn't that the church that 'fathered' a lot of our current religious communities? (Here in the States, I mean). This was just a thought that occurred to me as I was reading the posts in this thread. I'm still always baffled...just like Flint is, by how difficult is to get people off religious dogma even when it cant be substantiated or goes against what is considered common knowledge now (like that the Grand Canyon is only 4,500 years old). Jinx: I stand corrected.. . I was close...though. :p

07-09-2008, 08:32 PM	#10
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Hi guys! It's been a long time. I really must disagree with the sentiment that religion and science can peacefully coexist. They are mutually exclusive. The reason is, they both speak to the same thing: to answer questions about the nature of the universe. This is the reason they are so frequently at odds. The only reason for religion is to fill in the gaps in our knowledge. The so called "God of the Gaps". Anytime there is a gap in knowledge, just plug in God. Even the existence of God himself is a scientific hypothesis that could be proven if he actually existed. To those who would suggest that God created everything, I would ask, who created God? Any being powerful enough to create a universe must necessarily be more complex than that universe himself. So, where did he come from? If the universe must have been created because it's complex, well God would have to be complex to, so who created him? All this does is attempt to answer a mystery with a mystery. Why not just say you don't know, or fill the gaps in your knowledge in with provable facts? Oh! And just to hit on Flint's point on the Neatherthals, I don't think there is concensus among Physical Anthropologists that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens ever came into contact. Although their fossils are found in the same regional area within the same timeline, the dating method they use only has a certain time resolution. So, when the weather changed, the Neatherthals could have moved north on their own, and then the Homo Sapiens could have moved in a few years later. As far as I know, it wasn't proven that they ever saw each other. It's only circumstantial evidence. Interesting nonetheless. Last edited by juju; 07-09-2008 at 08:34 PM. Reason: spelling

07-09-2008, 09:34 PM	#12
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Well, I didn't mean to say I was stating a hypothesis, just that one could be formed.

07-09-2008, 09:51 PM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	OK here's the hypothesis: "God exists". Go to it!

07-09-2008, 09:54 PM	#14
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Ya, too bad he doesn't exist. If he did, there'd be evidence of it and it could be proven.

07-09-2008, 10:08 PM	#15
regular.joe Старый сержант Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women. Posts: 1,464	In any system there are statements that are true that can not be proven. __________________ Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius.

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