Radiant Barrier/ insullation Delima

[Flint]

I live in the asshole of Texas and I just bought a house that is 100 years old. I have a LONG list of things to do.

We looked at a 100yo house, but settled on a 50yo because the construction materials were things I could recognize, and wouldn't be afraid to tear apart without knowing how to put them back together. Some friends of ours ended up buying the 100yo place we looked at. We're in a nice little historical district where one house may have goats in the yard and the next may be a huge, old mansion. And then there are street like mine, i.e. Pleasantville. Our neighbors are little old ladies--it's like having a free burglar alarm.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Flint

Our neighbors are little old ladies--it's like having a free burglar alarm.

That's what my dad always said about our street. But it took him a long while to get used to the incredible nosiness of those same neighbors.

[Flint]

My wife doesn't mind the nosiness, as long as it generates a long-winded chat session.

She's stuck at home all day with two little people who are not very articulate conversationalists.

[Clodfobble]

And when those two little people get older, they will fiercely resent it when they try to sneak out, and the damn neighbors with their binoculars rat them out.

[BrianR]

Old folks - Check!

Got two sets, one of which, despite being 80+, managed to get out of his chair, outside and peeking through the "hedge" to see what I was having delivered (Wonderboard). When he couldn't identify it, he stayed there, puzzling it out until he finally tried asking me. In Spanish. Which I do not speak well. So I just smiled and shrugged and told him I do not speak Spanish (one of the phrases I memorised early on) and went back inside.

Do you live here, Flint? I thought you lived over in Austin or someplace?

Brian

[Clodfobble]

He's up in the metroplex.

[sweetwater]

How many Texans are in the Cellar? And with old people all around? And with attics in need of more or better insulation? How does one say "Yikes" in Texanese? But keep the info coming, I'm learning good info.

[Pooka]

Ok... I'm still torn. I've seen to this magical website of which you speak... and it is a bit more technical than I can handle at the moment. Figured... as there seem to be at least several of us hot Texans here I'd continue my thoughts on the topic.

Ok... so save for the ink, the cellulose is starting to look good again, but even so.. the Fiberglass I've looked at is certified by the Greenguard Environmental Institute for even the more stringent For Children and schools standards... and is an Energy Star Partner. No Cellulose insulations seem to meet those standards.

The more I research the more I am unsure of what to do. I'm even flipflopping on the radiant barrier... I'm now thinking that the foil variety is the way I want to go. I'm just wondering if there is any truth to what I was told... that with retro fitting you lose some of the effectiveness as it is not possible to get all the way down to the roofline with existing insullation in place. Thoughts anyone?

I should mention that while I'm not opposed to a DYI situation ... I want it done correctly... that is not to imply that Flint isn't capable of perfection... lord if anyone knows of his ability to strive for perfection it is me (and he most always achieves his desired goals), but he is so busy with work and school that the chances that it would be "himself" doing the install is slim... more likely would be another family member... who is also very busy and slow to complete projects... so paying a bit more for a professional and speedy job seems worthwhile to me.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Pooka

Ok... I'm still torn. I've seen to this magical website of which you speak... and it is a bit more technical than I can handle at the moment.

I just saw your post over there and the responses. I'd consider giving the most weight to the posts made by Andy Engel. He's one of the editors at Fine Homebuilding magazine and is quite knowledgeable. That Piffin guy is also pretty experienced, but he's from Maine, so I don't think his greatest expertise is in Texas insulating needs.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Pooka

Ok... I'm still torn. I've seen to this magical website of which you speak... and it is a bit more technical than I can handle at the moment. Figured... as there seem to be at least several of us hot Texans here I'd continue my thoughts on the topic.

Fiberglass remains the industry benchmark for insulation. Other types are used when installation makes fiberglass difficult.

Your first problem is the hottest or coldest part of the building exposed to outside (attic) air. That is where the insulation must be thickest. Four inches of any insulation is 1950 standard when energy was cheap. Six inches minimum. Around heating (cooling) ducts, insualtion must be thicker than in other locations. Three or four inches of insulation in ceiling regions is unacceptable anywhere in America - except where the rooms are unheated or uncooled.

Since insulation around ducts must be high (not flat) and not compressed, then fiberglass around those ducts is a simplest solution. Insulating around those ducts would be the first task regardless of what type insulation gets used in flat sections.

Thermal barriers (ie paper backing or metal foil) are the vapor barrier. A vapor barrier must exist where insulation meets inside air or touches sheet rock. In your case, insulation already exists. Putting insulation with a vapor barrier over top of existing insulation does nothing good for you; may create a problem. Obviously blown insulation does not have that vapor barrier. Fiberglass bats without a vapor barrier is purchased where fiberglass gets installed over existing insulation.

Air ducts are all but exposed. Insulation with a vapor barrier is installed here; would be useful and make the task easier to attach that insulation to a frame around those ducts. That paper backed or foil backed insulation gets stapled to a frame around air ducts (and anything else that requires separation from insulation such as embedded light fixtures).

Do you have large light fixtures embedded in the ceiling and exposed in the attic? These should also have insulation over them - not insulation blown into them. IOW before installing blown type insulation, some formed insulation (ie fiberglass) should be installed over these fixtures so that blown insulation is not blown into these light fixtures. Electrical light fixtures must breath. Many blown insulation installers don't do this; don't keep their insulation out of those embedded light fixtures.

If any electrical junction boxes are not properly covered, those covers MUST be installed before installing insulation. Insulation (especially blown type) inside any electrical junction box can only create a future hazard.

Your insulation will be higher than existing ceiling beams - typically 2x6s. Therefore insulation will pile up to the roof where ceiling beams meet rafters. This is a major vapor problem. A problem typically alleviated by installing styrofoam air channels. These channels hold the insulation maybe one inch away from the roof so the roof does not rot.

Insulation above those ceiling beams means attic spaces no longer are storage areas. To use the attic for storage, wood is placed above the ceiling beams. Then insulation installed. Now a floor (ie plywood) can be nailed above that insulation so that attic storage is possible.

Insulation works by expanding. Any insulation that is compressed becomes closer to no insulation. One problem with some blown insulation is that it compresses with age. Another advantage of fiberglass. It does not compress with age. As insulation compresses, its R rating decreases. Higher R means better insulation. Compressing insulation (with age or with storing items on top that insulation) reduces its R rating.

Attics must breath. Air from the soffit must flow up into the attic via those air channels, then out via roof vents or attic fan. Note the previous reference to an attic fan or another's reference to roof vents. You must have that ventilation so that air flows up through the inside of roof wood.

Cellulose or other blown materials can only be used where insulation lies flat. Where insulation is on an angled or curved surface, then fiberglass is typically used. Therefore the fiberglass is installed over those curved surfaces before blown insulation is layer into flat surfaces.

Any hole in the insulation means insulation around that hole is compromised. Properly installed insulation also takes scraps to fill any gaps. These gaps are why blown insulation is easier to install. No one must carefully fill holes between insulation bats or cut the fiberglass so that it encases (goes around) wires and other existing items. If the wire crosses from beam to beam, then fiberglass bats must be cut or separated so that insulation lies uncompressed on both sides of that wire. Inferior installers will just lay insulation over that wire and press the insulation down.

Insulation laid over any wires must also not press that wire to the sheet rock wall. Wires must always remain two inches away from every sheet rock wall so that nails hammered in any wall years later do not penetrate that wire. This workmanship is why many avoid fiberglass bats; use blown insulation.

Any type of insulation must be installed wearing a mask. All insulations fill the air with unhealthy materials when being installed. Mineral type insulations continue to fill air with hazardous (asbestos equivalent) materials after installed. Stable materials such as fiber glass, fiber boards, and some blown type insulations tend to be safe after installed. However outgassing from some blown type materials remains a problem denied by those manufacturers - ie formaldehyde. Outgassing is especially problematic where insulation is installed in confined spaces (ie walls). That outgassing goes into a house; not outside through the vapor barriers. Another reason why fiberglass is so highly recommended - no outgassing.

Just a few pointers to consider. Other responsible sources should have discussed these and other facts.

[footfootfoot]

Forget what you read, go stick your snout into a pile of cellulose insulation, there is no formaldehyde. I know, my whole house is filled with cellulose, I've worked on dozens of jobsites where the stuff was a cloud in the air. I know the smell of formaldehyde from my photog days and from the eye watering stink of fresh plywood. Any formaldehyde which may have been present in the ink (I seriously doubt this too) has long since evaporated.

THis opinion and $1.50, will buy you a cup of coffee. (not at starbucks) then again, you can run but you can't hide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde

(PS don't tell Clodfobble I linked to wikipedia)

As for certification, if you are willing to pay enough money you can have dogturds certified as safe. You must do your own research. Fiberglass is a carcinogen. PCBS are perfectly safe, ask Hudson River Voice, the folksy sounding grass roots organization which is a front for General Electric, who didn't really feel like spending millions and millions of $ to clean up their mess.

How much time do you plan on spending in your attic crawlspace anyway?

I'm a big fan of blown in insulation whether it is foam or fiberglass or cellulose. They each have drawbacks and strengths, what they all have in common is that by blowing the insulation in it fills all the nooks and crannies which placed insulation missess.

Good luck.


Oh there is also Adobe, I hear that is the real deal for the hotter climates...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Or put a lawn sprinkler on the roof.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

(PS don't tell Clodfobble I linked to wikipedia)

Who what now? I'm a big fan of wiki, I use it all the time...

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Who what now? I'm a big fan of wiki, I use it all the time...

So you say
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=711

[Clodfobble]

Dang it! Kagen didn't get the joke, and clearly no one else did either.

Originally Posted by Kagen404

wiki it stoopid

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

[edit]Wikipedia, a large and successful website containing a wide variety of general information articles which may be edited by any user, is stupid.[/edit]

See, it's like he made a wiki entry, and then I edited it to fix his grammar and spelling and add an encyclopedic definition of the term... ah, whaddayou guys know about humor anyway.


I should have put [citation needed] at the end to make it better...