Did we just declare a financial War on Iran?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Being a right-to-work state also means they can fire you for any reason or no reason, as long as it isn't blatantly discriminatory. This is quite useful for firing people who just suck at their jobs, but aren't necessarily grossly negligent.

It's also handy for getting rid of people they would like to replace, with people that will work for less. Or to make room for a lodge buddy's nephew. Or to dump that chick before she gets pregnant. Or replace that guy that lost an arm in the unguarded machinery, with a two armed guy that can mow the bosses lawn, on his own time, in order to keep his job.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

That's what the Stupid Left would want you to believe, Bruce, yes. "Massa," quotha.

I generally frustrate the Stupid Left, of course. It's the good thing to do.

[TheMercenary]

Business is business.

[xoxoxoBruce]

And it doesn't care about treating people fairly or ethically, so they have to demand it. Both employees and customers.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Again, Bruce -- that is what the Stupid Left wants you to believe. Can you stop being their tool? I can and have. You succeed better in business by caring about treating people ethically and fairly. No less do I.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Horseshit, I've seen it too many times. I've even been on the receiving end myself. Businesses treat their employees no better than the current prevailing working conditions in the area, as determined by middle management. The welfare of the peons is a low priority on the spreadsheets.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Horseshit, I've seen it too many times. I've even been on the receiving end myself. Businesses treat their employees no better than the current prevailing working conditions in the area, as determined by middle management. The welfare of the peons is a low priority on the spreadsheets.

Yer damn skippy.

[lookout123]

I've been on both sides of this issue. Union state/right to work state, Union/management. I grew up in a UAW town and remember guys getting beat with bats for trying to cross the line during a strike. Each and every option has pros and cons for employer AND employee.

In my old life as union guy and back up steward I know the wonders of the Union. Thanks for the weekend thing, the better pay, benefits, etc. I also know the shitty side - completely worthless employee gets to keep job because of union protection. Single mother willing to work 2nd shift job to help company and her family, but unable to because of seniority issue.

As a manager I had to play by the rules too. Keeping said shitty employee even though EVERYONE knew we were better off without him. Unable to fire employee for 8 freaking months until case was airtight and unassailable by union or lawyers. But it was nice not having to worry about job assignments since the Union had the bid process spelled out in detail. It usually worked out well.

Unions were absolutely vital in bringing about change in the workplace. They are vital in keeping the i's dotted and t's crossed. They are also culpable in the downfall of the US auto industry among others. The excesses of the '70's and '80's still are not fully realized. They are guilty of being too shortsighted as they are political machines with leadership mainly concerned with keeping their leadership. They sell future workers out for the sake of short term gains.

As with all things there are two sides to every story and they are both valid.

[TheMercenary]

I believe they do it anyway.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I'm sure you do, but if you have any proof, then go to the district attorney and file a complaint.

[TheMercenary]

I was thinking more along these lines:
http://www.fraudfactor.com/ffunionfraudintro.html

[xoxoxoBruce]

If your swallowing that bullshit, you're not thinking.

Union bombing of non-union construction sites between 1907 and 1911? C'mon.
Union leaders endorsing, and calling for members to vote for, political candidates they feel will benefit the members the most? Well, duh.

Unions have done more for the working people, especially women and minorities, than all the labor laws put together, which would never exist without them.
They have allowed workers to move up to the middle class with the bosses, and curtailed abuse by the robber barons that regulated the workers lives on and off the job. Without, unions and the laws they got passed/enforced, everyone's job, if not life, would be like being in the military.

The benefits of the unions in this country are reaped by everyone even if they've never belonged to a union. Do you think the non-union employers would give you a 40 hr week, your wge scale, or any benefits, if they didn't have to compete with unionized employers for help?

let's get serious here, unions are groups of people, and have all the warts and failings that people do. But the bottom line is they do an order of magnitude more good than harm.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

let's get serious here, unions are groups of people, and have all the warts and failings that people do. But the bottom line is they do an order of magnitude more good than harm.

I get your point. It is the same thing I tell people about the military and people who serve.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yes, being in the military would drive me full metal jacket, but I'm sure as hell glad, there are people who can adapt to it. We'd be in a world of hurt without them.

[lookout123]

Nah, we could just reasonably discuss our differences anytime we have issues with someone. The military is just organized thuggery.